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Thread: Las Vegas Oct 2017 mass shooting

  1. #421
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    Lei Feng Protege
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    3 hostages and gunman dead.

    goddamn.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  2. #422
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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  3. #423
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    Deranged lunatic without suicide by cop on his mind

    http://kxan.com/2018/03/12/one-dead-...n-east-austin/

  4. #424
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Florida shooting: Prosecutors seek death penalty for Nikolas Cruz

    US prosecutors are seeking the death penalty for the teenager accused of killing 17 people at a Florida high school last month.

    Nikolas Cruz, 19, has admitted carrying out the attack and is charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43391505

  5. #425
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Speaking of teachers with guns...

    https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/artic...y-12751275.php

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Was just talking about this. Eh... maybe not such a good idea after all.

  7. #427
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Just gonna reply with something I've already written:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    Agreed. Teachers shooting students, teachers shooting teachers, students getting ahold of their teacher's gun and shooting teachers/students. I imagine we'd see all sorts of these occurrences, and they'd be rather common. How long until a kid gets violent and a teacher decides to use deadly force? Or use the gun as intimidation and the kid makes a grab for it, gets shot, or disarms the teacher and starts shooting? Outbursts and misbehavior are extremely common in schools. Adding guns into the mix opens up a world of possibilities with regards to risks. So many ways such an idea could go horribly, horribly wrong.

    Thousands of guns have been stolen from law enforcement in the US. Why should we expect that arming teachers would be incident-free?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    If every school had a teacher or several teachers with ARs, my gut tells me there would be a lot more deaths than what we are seeing now.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 14 Mar 18, at 18:37.

  8. #428
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    When I hear a genius idea, a different category from a great idea, my first retort is what could possibly go wrong in a sarcastic tone. The teacher above was a reserve police officer and if that can happen to him what chance would ordinary teachers have?

  9. #429
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    Mass shooting panic?

    A kid gets deported for dyeing his hair, buying a Corvette, and buying a couple of rifles (he called one a "sniper rifle").

    http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/don...ng-hair-report

    The cops said his behavior raised "red flags".

    Are "red flags" the new code word making violating civil liberties ok? This kid had an immigration technicality. What's the next techicality for the next kid?

    BTW, CNN reported a search of his devices came out clean:

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/31/us/fl...ted/index.html

    Those red flags, the chief said, included Sun being uncommunicative with others and not leaving his room, dying his hair blond, paying for a fast expensive car with cash, and referring to one of his guns as a "sniper rifle."
    Beary said Sun also went to a gun range to practice with his rifle and also wouldn't return calls from authorities when they tried to notify him his immigration status was subject to change.
    But the chief acknowledged there were no comments in interviews or in reviews of his electronic devices that Sun was planning to harm anyone.
    "That's the interesting thing in this case, there were no specific threats. Reiterating that, there were no threats," Beary said.
    The chief said the red flags looked at separately might not mean much but when all of them were considered collectively they were concerning.
    "I think there was a disaster about to happen and we stopped it," the chief said.
    Orlando Sentinel story has more details.

    I find this part the only truly disturbing act:

    He said Sun chambered a round, pointed the rifle at the wall they shared with their neighbors and said, “Hey, look what I just got.”
    Obviously the guy has no concept of gun safety. However, painting this guy as a sure fired mass shooter?
    Last edited by citanon; 01 Apr 18, at 09:43.

  10. #430
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    Mass shooting panic?


    Are "red flags" the new code word making violating civil liberties ok? This kid had an immigration technicality. What's the next techicality for the next kid?
    He wasn’t attending classes, which made his visa invalid.
    Without a certain kind of visa, owning guns is illegal.
    Oh, and he lied to the police (a $68,000 car in China is very, very expensive).
    Eight weeks after coming to the attention of law enforcement, he was arrested.

    What took so long?
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

  11. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    He wasn’t attending classes, which made his visa invalid.
    Invalidation of the Visa is an administrative action that usually proceeds very differently from what was done here.

    Without a certain kind of visa, owning guns is illegal.
    That's a circular argument

    Oh, and he lied to the police (a $68,000 car in China is very, very expensive).
    He's perfectly normal in this belief. Large numbers of Chinese students are wealthy enough to pay for very fancy cars. A colleague's street has high school kids with Range Rovers, Lamborghinis and Rolls Royces. A $70,000 car doesn't even register as expensive amongst some young Chinese expats, at least not in California.

    Eight weeks after coming to the attention of law enforcement, he was arrested.

    What took so long?
    Written like someone with true disregard for civil liberties.

  12. #432
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    Mass shooting panic?

    A kid gets deported for dyeing his hair, buying a Corvette, and buying a couple of rifles (he called one a "sniper rifle").

    http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/don...ng-hair-report

    The cops said his behavior raised "red flags".

    Are "red flags" the new code word making violating civil liberties ok? This kid had an immigration technicality. What's the next techicality for the next kid?

    BTW, CNN reported a search of his devices came out clean:

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/31/us/fl...ted/index.html



    Orlando Sentinel story has more details.

    I find this part the only truly disturbing act:



    Obviously the guy has no concept of gun safety. However, painting this guy as a sure fired mass shooter?
    I don't know the particulars of this case, and I'm not going to rush to any judgments, and assume this guy is what the security services in the US says he is, or assume that he is innocent.

    That being said, and this is a thing I find rather disturbing, is there's been a perverse reversal of Blackstone's Formulation in the US, one of the bedrocks of our system of criminal law.

    The idea used to be "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

    Now it is, "It is better that ten innocents shall suffer than let one guilty person escape."

    And a single false accusation from years ago can follow one for the rest of one's life.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 01 Apr 18, at 12:54.

  13. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    I don't know the particulars of this case, and I'm not going to rush to any judgments, and assume this guy is what the security services in the US says he is, or assume that he is innocent.

    That being said, and this is a thing I find rather disturbing, is there's been a perverse reversal of Blackstone's Formulation in the US, one of the bedrocks of our system of criminal law.

    The idea used to be "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

    Now it is, "It is better that ten innocents shall suffer than let one guilty person escape."

    And a single false accusation from years ago can follow one for the rest of one's life.
    This is exactly what makes me deeply uncomfortable about this case.

    That and something else: In a society that purports to care deeply about civil liberties and where both the left and right believe freedom to be in peril, this highly ambiguous case has incited no serious controversy or debate after being reported on the front page of CNN. Not even a thread on reddit that I can find besides r/China.

    I find the lack of attention really spooky.

    Listen to the police Chief in the CNN videos:

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/31/us/fl...ted/index.html

    We talk about Japanese internment in WWII like it could never happen again, and yet, in 2018, you push the right buttons, find the right target group, and, not a peep. No one even realizes there might be something of concern.

  14. #434
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    This is exactly what makes me deeply uncomfortable about this case.

    That and something else: In a society that purports to care deeply about civil liberties and where both the left and right believe freedom to be in peril, this highly ambiguous case has incited no serious controversy or debate after being reported on the front page of CNN. Not even a thread on reddit that I can find besides r/China.

    I find the lack of attention really spooky.

    Listen to the police Chief in the CNN videos:

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/31/us/fl...ted/index.html

    We talk about Japanese internment in WWII like it could never happen again, and yet, in 2018, you push the right buttons, find the right target group, and, not a peep. No one even realizes there might be something of concern.
    One thing that bothers me most is that there's been the creation of a permanent underclass in American society. The only difference between many so-called "upstanding citizens" and career criminals is that at a critical juncture in their life, the former had access to a lawyer, the means to afford one, the right skin color, the benefit of the doubt, he reminded the cops of his own son, the police declined to pursue charges, or any combination of these. The latter gets the book thrown at them, gets a stain on their record, and is denied participation in and faces rejection from society, and slips further and further down the wrong path. These factors see themselves played out just as much in urban America as they do in rural America.

    It's certainly not a healthy criminal justice system, and it makes for an unhealthy society. Justice isn't blind, yet we give lip service to the idea that it is.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 01 Apr 18, at 13:53.

  15. #435
    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    Someone is working under the assumption that a Public Defender has not passed the Bar exam.
    Your stated position is that career CJS workers and those in Judicial System have been stacked with racists and against those of limited means (including those that work tirelessly in public defenders offices across the country).
    You have officially drank the cool aid and poisoned yourself against all facets of the American system of justice.
    This system is most fair and just going in my opinion.
    I’m sad for you that you are so jaded against those that give so much to operate the wheels of Justice.
    You owe them thanks as they are hard working in draining jobs.
    Last edited by surfgun; 01 Apr 18, at 18:00.

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