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Thread: Las Vegas Oct 2017 mass shooting

  1. #181
    Senior Contributor Monash's Avatar
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    I know that some contributors on this forum have suggested that 'hardening' schools to prevent mass shootings including providing armed security details is the answer to America's problems but with something like 130,000 public/private primary and secondary schools in the country can one of the persons in favor of this idea please explain - assuming each school has a response team of 4 members (& that's the smallest I can imagine while still being effective):

    1) Where do you find the trained staff.
    2) Who the f *** pays for all this (and would it be registered gun owners by any chance?)

    Or would it be taxpayers who don't own guns also have to pay? I mean heck its their children who are being protected as well you know.

    I mean you are literally talking about assigning the equivalent of the entire US (regualr)army to school safety patrol.
    Last edited by Monash; 18 Feb 18, at 11:32.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post

    You are correct when you note that the gun buyback had little to no effect on the level of violent crime in Australia. But that is not the issue. The auto-loader ban was focused on preventing one specific sub-set of violent crime i.e. mass shootings not all violent crime and in that context it has been a spectacular success.
    There is zero way to prove that claim. You had a one off event and haven't had one since. Is that due to the ban or your culture. Given the rarity of the event before it happened it would logically point to culture. The fact that your eventual next bad man has to use a truck won't lower the victim count. Several coun tries with very tough gun laws have seen repeated mass killings by both guns and other means.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post
    I know that some contributors on this forum have suggested that 'hardening' schools to prevent mass shootings including providing armed security details is the answer to America's problems but with something like 130,000 public/private primary and secondary schools in the country can one of the persons in favor of this idea please explain - assuming each school has a response team of 4 members (& that's the smallest I can imagine while still being effective):

    1) Where do you find the trained staff.
    Distribution would be uneven. In some states the number of teachers may be quite high due to the common nature of shooting sports in that location. In other areas it may be extremely hard to find anyone due to no pool of experienced shooters to pull from.

    2) Who the f *** pays for all this (and would it be registered gun owners by any chance?)
    Most people willing to do it likely already have the gun they would use and at least rudimentary training. Local law enforcement trainers would be the logical training provider as it would both provide commonality of training and help build a unified response framework.

    Or would it be taxpayers who don't own guns also have to pay? I mean heck its their children who are being protected as well you know.
    I think overall tax payer cost would be far less than hiring a couple of armed security per school. The biggest cost would be in retrofitting doors to be able to lock and making them outward opening so they could not be kicked in.

    I mean you are literally talking about assigning the equivalent of the entire US (regualr)army to school safety patrol.
    Armed teachers like air marshals are mainly for deterrence not enforcement. It is just part of a holistic approach to hardening schools. It won't stop rampage killers, but will hopefully force them out of the schools.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    WA state has brought in additional paperwork for gun shows too. It has yet to be challenged.
    Looking at the enforcement, failure to transfer via FFL only results in a fine, not jailtime. Without a national gun registry (good luck with that one), this is almost useless. Violators getting caught are slim and is a slap on the wrist.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    This was not about Doctor Patient privilege. It was about data regarding federal benefits. the regulation was already on the books but Trump canceled. Here is the link for reference

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/polit...ner/index.html
    The specifics is a danger to self or others or mentally incompetent, meaning you cannot survive without guidance, ie danger to self, example, don't know when to feed yourself.

    A combat veteran seeking PTSD help from a VA hospital would not be on that list.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    I was referring to stopping people, who are on watchlists, from buying guns. The REpublicans wanted to include an appeals process which the Dems objected to
    The ACLU is prepared to fight any such legislation. I really don't see how this would pass the SCUS. The Republicans who opposed this is not about setting up an appeal but setting up the due process. They want the due process to prove that you should be denied your consitutional right to be bear arms, ie innocent until proven guilty.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Do you realize that Trump is cutting that budget? Do you not see the hypocrisy?
    I do but the problem is that for most, men especially, mental health is a cop out, a coward. Even amongst combat veterans, it was looked upon as cowardice. Patton once ordered that anyone claiming shell shock would be charged with cowardice and emptied a hospital. In small armies like the British, Canadian, and Australian, it was a career and retirement killer. Not that you can't get help but you're not doing the work that needs doing and the army will find someone who can.

    You, yourself, said the kid deserves an afternoon in a penal yard and a lethal injection.

    Mental health is an unseen disease and cost lives. Robin Williams was such a victim and after going through my own episodes, I can see my views before and after. Most obviously, I want my health money going towards stopping heart attacks and not towards a kid who didn't hugged his mommy enough but now, I can recognize that kid was a time bomb and no one recognized it, especially not the kid

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    From a practical point I accept that but my point is that you cannot necessarily give the 2A as a reason to handle any gun you like. Look at the Heller decision. Even Scalia concedes, while confirming the right to bear arms, that some weapons are unusual outside the military.
    It's a dangerous society when only government instruments such as the police and the military have access to lethal resources and the citizenry do not. It is not what the people in the military signed up for. The 2A specifically addresses this issue by including the language, well regulated militia.

    Contrary to popular belief, semi-auto assault rifles are available to Canadian citizens but you have to jump through hoops to do so but it's no more bureaucratic than getting an Class Protected Clearance.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    WA state is banning them right now. The bill passed state Senate and is probably going to pass the house.
    It's easy to ban the SLIDEFIRE Bump Stock. After all, they have the patten and you can ban the patten but how do ban the concept? Every attempt to ban the concept today sounds like you're trying to ban a rubber band.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 18 Feb 18, at 21:52.

  5. #185
    Contributor 1980s's Avatar
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    Any thoughts / responses to this?


  6. #186
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Distribution would be uneven. In some states the number of teachers may be quite high due to the common nature of shooting sports in that location. In other areas it may be extremely hard to find anyone due to no pool of experienced shooters to pull from.



    Most people willing to do it likely already have the gun they would use and at least rudimentary training. Local law enforcement trainers would be the logical training provider as it would both provide commonality of training and help build a unified response framework.



    I think overall tax payer cost would be far less than hiring a couple of armed security per school. The biggest cost would be in retrofitting doors to be able to lock and making them outward opening so they could not be kicked in.



    Armed teachers like air marshals are mainly for deterrence not enforcement. It is just part of a holistic approach to hardening schools. It won't stop rampage killers, but will hopefully force them out of the schools.
    Again with the Air Marshalls. Let's do this - lets get rid of the TSA and all the security infrastructure that actually checks and stops people from gettings arms or explosives into airplanes and rely only on Air Marshalls, because deterrance! Let's see how that goes.

    Apparently, rampant hijacking is not happening, not because of the most elaborate security infrastrauture around, but because of some armed guards in the shadows!
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  7. #187
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Sorry, the substitution arguement does work. It's called arson

    https://www.google.ca/search?q=arson+deaths
    Mass shooters in America, mass stabbers in China, etc. have direct agency over their actions. The feelings of empowerment, gratification, and the exercise of control I believe these people feel when committing their acts are strictly non-vicarious. Causing death through arson is more vicarious and indirect. I don't think inflicting death through arson has the qualities that these people are seeking.

    I read a statistic that there are some 1.35 million fires each year in the US, but only ~3000 deaths. Even the statistics you've linked only cite 4.1 deaths per 1000 incidents of arson. While a very small number of incidents of arson can be extremely deadly, it's much more difficult to achieve that practically. And again, I don't think the urges and psychology that drives people into choosing to be active shooters would make them content with sitting back and taking vicarious satisfaction in letting the fire indirectly do the work. They want to be in control, exercising personal agency, experiencing the power over life and death directly.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 19 Feb 18, at 03:57.

  8. #188
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Again with the Air Marshalls. Let's do this - lets get rid of the TSA and all the security infrastructure that actually checks and stops people from gettings arms or explosives into airplanes and rely only on Air Marshalls, because deterrance! Let's see how that goes.

    Apparently, rampant hijacking is not happening, not because of the most elaborate security infrastrauture around, but because of some armed guards in the shadows!
    Agree with your sentiment. If air marshals were the only defense employed to defend against hijacking, there would have been dozens if not hundreds of copycat hijackings by now. It's estimated that at most perhaps one-half of one percent of domestic flights have air marshals.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 19 Feb 18, at 03:56.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Again with the Air Marshalls. Let's do this - lets get rid of the TSA and all the security infrastructure that actually checks and stops people from gettings arms or explosives into airplanes and rely only on Air Marshalls, because deterrance! Let's see how that goes.

    Apparently, rampant hijacking is not happening, not because of the most elaborate security infrastrauture around, but because of some armed guards in the shadows!
    I haven't advocated that armed teacher alone would stop rampage killers. I had always said they should be included as part of a holistic approach to hardening schools against attacks. Simple fact is, if the doors and other passive defenses fail, its a shooting spree until someone with a gun puts a stop to it. The Florida shooting lasted for 3 minutes and was over minutes before the first cop arrived. Every armed teacher is a classroom that becomes one with active defenses.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    Mass shooters in America, mass stabbers in China, etc. have direct agency over their actions. The feelings of empowerment, gratification, and the exercise of control I believe these people feel when committing their acts are strictly non-vicarious. Causing death through arson is more vicarious and indirect. I don't think inflicting death through arson has the qualities that these people are seeking.
    11 September.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 19 Feb 18, at 04:57.

  11. #191
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    11 September.
    Ideologically motivated.

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    And their emotions allowed them to carry through with their tasks; probably screaming at the joy of killing infidels they would not see. The feelings of empowerment, gratification, and the exercise of control.

    The largeset mass murder in US history without the use of firearms.

  13. #193
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    I haven't advocated that armed teacher alone would stop rampage killers. I had always said they should be included as part of a holistic approach to hardening schools against attacks. Simple fact is, if the doors and other passive defenses fail, its a shooting spree until someone with a gun puts a stop to it. The Florida shooting lasted for 3 minutes and was over minutes before the first cop arrived. Every armed teacher is a classroom that becomes one with active defenses.
    I objected to your bringing in Air Marshalls and deterrance in this.

    Now lets talk about armed teachers. I think the Col and others have poinyed out the folly of relying on armed teacher. I have another one. No one volunteers in a school. What do you do? Let the kids be unprotected?
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    And their emotions allowed them to carry through with their tasks; probably screaming at the joy of killing infidels they would not see. The feelings of empowerment, gratification, and the exercise of control.

    The largeset mass murder in US history without the use of firearms.
    Did the US sit with their hands tied after that? No, they took precautionary actions, from changing security procedures to luggage allowances and even internal aircraft hardware. Its a continuous moving target. Here we are hearing that we should do nothing
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Did the US sit with their hands tied after that? No, they took precautionary actions, from changing security procedures to luggage allowances and even internal aircraft hardware. Its a continuous moving target. Here we are hearing that we should do nothing
    And F-16s ready to shoot down any airplane full of fuel onto a city neighbourhood instead of the White House. That is not at all reassuring to the people of Washington DC.

    The point here is that people have already moved away from firearms for mass murder with all the emotional contents of firearms. Most would be mass murderers just have not clued in yet. Remove their firearms and they will clue in.

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