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Las Vegas Oct 2017 mass shooting

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  • Know whats crazy?
    We won't allow a 19yr old to buy a beer. Because he/she isn't mature enough to be a responsible drinker.

    But, we have no problem with them buying guns. Even those like this shooter that checked hisself out of a mental health clinic not to long ago.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
      What are you talking about? How many hours of practice do you need with a .3030 or .223? Or even a .22short?
      I have no experience with lever action, but I can state with certainty that my AR and AK take less time to let off rounds compared to my bolt action rifles. The AR even makes reloading super easy, just hit that thingie (whose name I am forgetting) on an open bolt and you are good to go. If you have stacked mags, it is even easier.

      Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
      And you know what is scary about lever and bolt actions, far more than automatics? It forces you to make the shot instead of taking the shot. Hell, we don't use handheld autos for the very fact that you can't control the climb. No such thing with lever or bolt actions.
      My point exactly. It takes refocus instead of spraying. At close quarters, this means time lost for the shooter.

      Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
      Are you joking me? We have over 200 million Americans who can fill up a gas tank and can get it anywhere in the US. In fact, that is one of the ways that scares the hell out of me. It doesn't take brains to spill gas and light it. The only thing stopping its spread is the lack of the cool factor.
      It takes brains not to cook yourself into a horrible death, which is why people avoid it.

      Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
      I like Kato's suggestion. All classrooms have firedoors. They can take a hell of a lot of punishment. Locked and the AR-15 ain't getting through to do harm. What scares me is what the idiot can do with gasoline.
      I agree that schools need to have protective infrastructure. The sad part is that American has become a country where this is at all needed
      "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
        Columbine had one too. The shooters there were surely fully aware their school had one. Virginia Tech has its own police force and security guards, didn't pre-emptively dissuade the shooter there either.
        The armed guards cannot be everywhere. But they are dedicated to defending and are far better than armed teachers, whose job is to teach. Armed guards, together with protective and security infrastructure can at least make schools safer, because spineless politicians will not do anything except offer thougths and prayers.
        "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

        Comment


        • Originally posted by citanon View Post
          Well, on the plus side, the average teacher who volunteers for this sort of thing is going to be older, more mature, better educated, more mature, have a better temperament, and is probably more trainable than your average security guard. They are also likely to be more motivated than private security.
          Why would a teacher, whose job is teaching be more motivated about being armed and trained than an armed guard, whose job is security? Also, what if ther are no volunteers?

          Originally posted by citanon View Post
          I don't think it makes sense to arm teachers with anything other than long guns. I think in a school setting pistols are actually more hazardous than long guns, and I think a teacher who is trained and armed with a long gun would actually do better in these situations than a typical LEO with a pistol.
          You want teachers armed with long guns, presumably hanging off their bodies on three point slings while they write on the board. Zraver wants anonymous air marshalls. Please decide amongst yourselves (the proarmed teacher supporters) what your policy position
          "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
            Then you should have looked further on the JAMA page.

            https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...&redirect=true
            All physicians, not criminologists or statisticians. It's easy to cherry pick if you have a result in mind before starting, and most of the quoted studies are too narrow based to be of any use.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by jjk308 View Post
              Sorry. I can understand how upset you are but you are wrong. Tighter regulations have proven useless - according to my own and other studies both in the USA and abroad, such as the failure of the Australian autoloader buy back to have any effect on the violent crime rate curve. And you misread the NRA influence and the reasons for gun control legislative failure.

              It's obvious that more armed protection for schools and a competent and pro-active FBI and local law enforcement could have, and should have, prevented this shooting. But the media firestorm surpasses anything I've seen in sheer emotionalism and ignorance.

              None of them seem to know anything about the subject beyond parroting what they've seen in like minded media articles and news reports. The "NRA cash" refrain is typical. the NRA spends far less on campaign contributions and lobbying than any other major national organization. Yet it always ranks near the top in effectiveness. That's because it has a large and dedicated, active membership and a huge following of single issue voters, unlike the usual astro-turf type gun control groups with small real memberships or the bigger organizations that don't have an involved, single interest membership.

              The gun issue is a major part of the US cultural wars, urban Liberals vs everyone else, and it's had major political repercussions, like driving the Democrats out of power. It really is the 3rd rail of American politics and despite the ranting of the anti-gun rights media the generally silent and delayed blowback has destroyed all efforts at gun control nationally and in 3/4 of the states.

              As for gun control itself, all those gun laws, some 22,000 of them (before SCOTUS 2nd Amendment rulings), and gun control in general have to be the biggest failure of public policy since Prohibition. This fact seems to be affecting the general mass of voters and even media commentators, increasingly disillusioned about their ability to "do something."

              It takes a lot of statistical trickery to show any positive effects, such as ignoring all violence except gun violence, cherry picking locations and times (AKA p-hacking) and selecting basic assumptions and methodology to get the desired results.

              The following studies are definitive, showing how futile its all been. I hope someone will do a study showing how the threat of gun control and especially of confiscation and bans, has lead to a surge in firearms sales and to 320,000,000 firearms in America. The very quantity of US firearms make gun control a political delusion, utterly impossible yet a basic part of the Democrat's ideology.

              Brady Act Effectiveness: JOC91749.pdf at http://jama.jamanetwork.com

              Evaluation of Firearms Laws https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2...

              DOJ: Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault
              Weapons Ban: 1994-2003
              Christopher S. Koper
              Document No.: 204431
              Award Number: 98-IJ-CX-0039
              I agree that purely from a political perspective, Democracts should stop hounding this issue. I guess we should just let the mass murders, school shootings and dead children just pile up instead (where is the fucking angry face when you need it)
              "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

              Comment


              • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                It is working though, look where the mass shootings are occuring, where the law says society doesn't have to be polite.
                Really? How would your armed society have prevented the Las Vegas Shootings?
                "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post

                  But, we have no problem with them buying guns. Even those like this shooter that checked hisself out of a mental health clinic not to long ago.
                  Florida, and every other state I know of has a very defective mental health system. Under the Baker Act it's far too hard to commit anyone involuntarily, so most admissions are either to an open community health center to are voluntary. Unless you jump through a lot of hoops the involuntary ones are limited to 72 hours, inadequate for evaluating and determining treatment, and it's difficult to get anyone who isn't incoherent or raving and violent committed involuntarily. I have personal experience of that process having been a guardian ad litum.

                  This state of affairs exists because Liberals wanted to protect mental patients rights and Conservatives wanted to save money by closing mental hospitals. It obviously isn't working.

                  As for age, I wouldn't have a problem with a 25 year minimum for both drinking and buying a firearm, which would get you out of the age range for most violent crime. That is if it could be enforced, and it can't because of those 300,000,000 guns.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                    I agree that purely from a political perspective, Democracts should stop hounding this issue. I guess we should just let the mass murders, school shootings and dead children just pile up instead (where is the fucking angry face when you need it)
                    So what's your solution, short of a civil war to confiscate all guns, or more useless laws? This issue is running strictly on emotion, not reason.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                      They might, they might not, strangers wouldn't.
                      How many of these school shooters were strangers? Kids would know exactly what the teachers would be up to. What sort of guns would the teachers carry? I assume you carry. It is quite difficult to carry any weapon with substantial capacity without quite noticeble printing. If the teacher has to be in tucked shirt and tie then this roblem intensifies. Else you have the dead giveaway hawaian shirt and fisherman jacket.

                      Originally posted by zraver View Post
                      Even if the student turned rampage killer did know who one was there might be more, and they may not encounter them upon entry. If the student was planning on doing a hit on an armed teacher as the kick off event it precludes walking through the doors with a long gun.
                      Violin case, guitar case, T Square/ arch. drafter case, gym bag. The possibilities are endless. Also, if one just wants to kill a few (as opposed to a lot) students, a pistol with a number of mags would serve as well

                      Originally posted by zraver View Post
                      You can't, no one can. The goal is too keep the carnage from spreading.
                      Yes, we can. Other countries are doing it.

                      Originally posted by zraver View Post
                      Because in the history of mass shootings in America, only once has the rampage killer sought to engage armed security first. Past is prologue. Yeah there may be another example of where a would be rampage killer would seek out the armed opposition first, but that is not the bulk history.
                      You did no answer the question, what would you do?

                      Originally posted by zraver View Post
                      Not every flight has an air marshal, the idea is hidden but maybe= deterrence.
                      When the goal is death by cop, there is no deterrance. Also, it is not really easy to actually get a gun into an airport, unline in a school. Else you are talking about airport level security at all entry points.

                      Originally posted by zraver View Post
                      Not the way liability for public service workers works. They can't even be sued unless there is a finding of gross negligence.n Ie you have to sue the state first and win a finding of gross negligence before immunity will be waived.
                      That is their job, this is volunteering.

                      Originally posted by zraver View Post
                      Have local PD or state troopers teach the class.
                      In that budget may be shared, but it is not free

                      Originally posted by zraver View Post
                      Wonder how the parents of dead kids would vote?
                      Do you indeed?

                      https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/polit...ntv/index.html
                      "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by jjk308 View Post
                        So what's your solution, short of a civil war to confiscate all guns, or more useless laws? This issue is running strictly on emotion, not reason.
                        I would start with the following

                        1. Ban all semi-auto firearms imports - AKs, FN FALs, VEPRs. I believe this can be done through executive order
                        2. Ban all import of ammuniton. Let's see where you get your cheap TULA and WOLF. I think this can be done through Executive order too
                        3. Raise taxes on all non-hunting rifle calibers. Your 5.56, .223, 7.62 all go way up. Do the same for 300 blackout
                        4. Raise taxes way high on all reloading equipment and supplies
                        5. Raise minimum age to be able to purchase firearms to 21 - act of Congress
                        6. Harsh mandatory minimum sentences for any firearms violations - act of Congress
                        7. Mandatory backgrounds check and data sharing across the board - act of Congress
                        8. Do not allow people on aviation, terrorist or any other watchlists to purchase firearms. They should have a right to appeal though - act of Congress
                        9. Share mental health related data federally and across states, include as part of background check - act of Congress
                        10. Ban bump fire stocks - Act of Congress
                        11. Mandate serial number for barrels, create a ballistics profile DB for all new barrels and require NICS check for barrel purchase

                        Notice how I have not even gone into AWB, Magazine size etc.

                        The next step is to ban all semi auto rifles (Assault weapons do not even mean anything). Do not touch pistols, shotgun variants and non semi auto rifle variants
                        "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jjk308 View Post
                          All physicians, not criminologists or statisticians. It's easy to cherry pick if you have a result in mind before starting, and most of the quoted studies are too narrow based to be of any use.
                          Yea, Its JAMA The Journal of the American Medical Association.

                          You know, the site you linked to.

                          Comment


                          • If gun ownership is a right with presence of guns being ubiquitous in our country, perhaps proponents should just take the position that the existence of gun violence, however tragic, is an acceptable risk.
                            "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

                            Comment


                            • the more honest ones say this, which at least is better than the stupid logical contortion that if only America had even MORE guns, Americans would be safer.
                              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                                I have no experience with lever action, but I can state with certainty that my AR and AK take less time to let off rounds compared to my bolt action rifles. The AR even makes reloading super easy, just hit that thingie (whose name I am forgetting) on an open bolt and you are good to go. If you have stacked mags, it is even easier.
                                Play with the .303 LEE-ENFIELD, a bolt action designed for military use, rapid fire, fast reload, and is not a semi-auto.

                                Originally posted by antimony View Post
                                My point exactly. It takes refocus instead of spraying. At close quarters, this means time lost for the shooter.
                                I rather have him hitting walls and ceilings and wasting ammo than to acquire a 2nd target.

                                Originally posted by antimony View Post
                                It takes brains not to cook yourself into a horrible death, which is why people avoid it.
                                As opposed to learning how to load and reload a firearm? Molotov cocktails ain't rocket science.

                                The only thing stopping more Boston Marathons is the lack of cool factor.

                                Originally posted by antimony View Post
                                I agree that schools need to have protective infrastructure. The sad part is that American has become a country where this is at all needed
                                They should already have it. It's called the Fire Code. What's missing are procedures on how to lock doors, get out of the lanes of fire, call for help, and how to wait for help.
                                Chimo

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