View Poll Results: What is the best course of action in dealing with North Korea?

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  • Full scale preemptive military strike

    4 28.57%
  • Limited preemptive military strike

    0 0%
  • Appeasement in the form of recognition and aid

    1 7.14%
  • Strategic Patience - Neither negotiation nor military action

    9 64.29%
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Thread: The Korean Dilemma

  1. #901
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    It ain't KJU playing Trump. It's Xi. KJU is just Xi's pawn.
    Which only makes Trump look all the more like a complete idiot. A pawn is leading a wannabe "king" around by the nose.

    Speaking of Xi, we're also still waiting for Trump's "great trade deal with China", knowing full well that Xi is making Trump look like a small child begging to sit at the grow-up's table.

    Then there's Vladimir Putin doing the exact same thing on the other side of the world.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  2. #902
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Which only makes Trump look all the more like a complete idiot. A pawn is leading a wannabe "king" around by the nose.
    Not by a long shot. From Asia's perspective, they thought they finally found someone to pay for the mess in North Korea. That someone, Trump, was going to foot the bill to bring North Korea into the 21st Century from the 19th Century. Imagine their dismay when this is not happening yet.

    If anything, Trump is looking rather smart at avoiding that money black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Speaking of Xi, we're also still waiting for Trump's "great trade deal with China", knowing full well that Xi is making Trump look like a small child begging to sit at the grow-up's table.
    Again, from Asia's perspective, it is Xi who is begging to Trump. All the concessions being made are Chinese. What the Americans are offerring is a resumption of trade but by no means an acceptance of the old trade relationship. The Chinese will have to pay a much higher price for the resumption of trade. The question is how much Xi is willing to pay, not that Xi will not have to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Then there's Vladimir Putin doing the exact same thing on the other side of the world.
    Putin needs to get out of his Vietnam in the UKR

  3. #903
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Not by a long shot. From Asia's perspective, they thought they finally found someone to pay for the mess in North Korea. That someone, Trump, was going to foot the bill to bring North Korea into the 21st Century from the 19th Century. Imagine their dismay when this is not happening yet.
    Then Asia needs to be fired from their job of Predictions. Because any idiot could see that Trump was flaming angry at NATO for not footing their end of the bill. What kind of fool would think that Donald Trump would dump money into the black hole known as the DPRK.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    If anything, Trump is looking rather smart at avoiding that money black hole.
    Again, I don't know anybody who knew even the barest facts about Donald Trump that would assume he would do such a thing. He doesn't even pay his own contractors. Why the f--k would he throw money at the DPRK?

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Again, from Asia's perspective, it is Xi who is begging to Trump. All the concessions being made are Chinese. What the Americans are offerring is a resumption of trade but by no means an acceptance of the old trade relationship. The Chinese will have to pay a much higher price for the resumption of trade. The question is how much Xi is willing to pay, not that Xi will not have to pay.
    The jury is, somewhat, still out of that. I say "somewhat" because the US has had to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to US farmers due to Trump's infantile understanding of economics and trade. And we're still waiting for Trump's "beautiful" trade deal with China.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Putin needs to get out of his Vietnam in the UKR
    Well yeah, but that's irrelevant to him playing Trump like a cheap fiddle.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  4. #904
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Well yeah, but that's irrelevant to him playing Trump like a cheap fiddle.
    Oh and what has Putin got out of Trump. What has this supposed bonhomie won for Russians ?

    Grand bargain with the west on UKR ? NO

    Sanctions relief ? NO

    But when they meet they talk cordially so Russians don't have a lot from Trump
    Last edited by Double Edge; 02 Jan 20, at 00:28.

  5. #905
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    It ain't KJU playing Trump. It's Xi. KJU is just Xi's pawn.
    Has Xi managed to get anything out of the US from this affair ?

    It seems like things have reverted back to situation post-ante

    Nobody won, nobody lost and all three gained nothing

  6. #906
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Not by a long shot. From Asia's perspective, they thought they finally found someone to pay for the mess in North Korea. That someone, Trump, was going to foot the bill to bring North Korea into the 21st Century from the 19th Century. Imagine their dismay when this is not happening yet.

    If anything, Trump is looking rather smart at avoiding that money black hole.
    Are you sure Trump was going to foot this bill ? i thought the majority of it would be on SK's tab

    I suppose might help with a little.

    US got good ROI with SK.

    $10bn since the Korean war and see how far SK went

    If only the north was won too back in the 50s..... : (

    Again, from Asia's perspective, it is Xi who is begging to Trump. All the concessions being made are Chinese. What the Americans are offerring is a resumption of trade but by no means an acceptance of the old trade relationship. The Chinese will have to pay a much higher price for the resumption of trade. The question is how much Xi is willing to pay, not that Xi will not have to pay.
    This concurs with what i've heard as well
    Last edited by Double Edge; 02 Jan 20, at 00:31.

  7. #907
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Then Asia needs to be fired from their job of Predictions. Because any idiot could see that Trump was flaming angry at NATO for not footing their end of the bill. What kind of fool would think that Donald Trump would dump money into the black hole known as the DPRK.

    Again, I don't know anybody who knew even the barest facts about Donald Trump that would assume he would do such a thing. He doesn't even pay his own contractors. Why the f--k would he throw money at the DPRK?
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Are you sure Trump was going to foot this bill ? i thought the majority of it would be on SK's tab.
    Pompeo made the statements that the US would invest heavily in exchange for NKorean nuclear disarmament. During the period in question, there seemed to be positive movements on both sides as they explore ways to reduce tension. The US cancelled EX KEY RESOLVE while the DPRK initiated a testing moritorium. Do recall that this Asia. Appearance matters more than what's on paper which is why Trump is so perplexing to the Asians. Trump doesn't care about the loss of face; only what's signed on the dotted line ... and even then, he will slimed everyway he can out of it. If KJU tried to do what Trump does, he would have had a full uprising on his hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    The jury is, somewhat, still out of that. I say "somewhat" because the US has had to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to US farmers due to Trump's infantile understanding of economics and trade. And we're still waiting for Trump's "beautiful" trade deal with China.
    Again, I'm looking at this as a non-American and a non-Chinese. No doubt that both sides are hurting from this trade war. Food prices in China have jumped big time especially soy and pork products. Soy is a cheap protien in China. A soy price jump essentially hurts the poor, the very people the CCP could not afford to piss off.

    That being said. All I see is who is offerring what and it ain't the US who is offerring concessions. You have to ask, if Trump is this idiot? Why ain't the trade war over with Xi laughing his way to the bank? And why isn't the sanctions lifted with KJU keeping his nukes?

    And why NATO has not put Trump in his place and why NAFTA II was so difficult for Canada and Mexico to get. And whether you belive it or not, NAFTA II is a better deal for the US than it is for Canada and Mexico.

    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Well yeah, but that's irrelevant to him playing Trump like a cheap fiddle.
    As long as the US, read Trump, keeps pumping money in the UKR, Putin's Vietnam would continue to drain him. At the very least, Putin needs Trump to halt/reduce support to the UKR. That has not happened.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 02 Jan 20, at 05:36.

  8. #908
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    North Korea says leaders' relations not enough after Trump sends birthday wishes to Kim

    SEOUL (Reuters) - North Korea has received birthday greetings to its leader Kim Jong Un from U.S. President Donald Trump, but their personal relationship is not enough for a return to talks, according to a statement published on Saturday by state news agency KCNA.

    The comments come against the backdrop of stalled denuclearization talks following a flurry of diplomacy between the United States and North Korea in 2018 and early 2019.

    While Kim could personally like Trump, he would not lead his country on the basis of personal feelings, Kim Kye Gwan, an adviser to the North Korean foreign ministry, said in the statement.

    "Although Chairman Kim Jong Un has good personal feelings about President Trump, they are, in the true sense of the word, 'personal'," he said.

    "We have been deceived by the United States, being caught in the dialogue with it for over one year and a half, and that was the lost time for us."

    North Korea will not discuss proposals such as those Trump made at his last summit with Kim Jong Un in Hanoi in February 2019, the foreign ministry adviser said.

    The North will not give up its nuclear facilities for partial sanctions relief, and will only return to talks when the United States makes concessions, he added.

    "The reopening of dialogue between the DPRK and the U.S. may be possible only under the condition of the latter's absolute agreement on the issues raised by the former, but we know well that the U.S. is neither ready nor able to do so," he said.

    The abbreviation DPRK refers to the North's official name, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

    Saturday's comments show how ties between leaders are sometimes only marginally useful for diplomacy, said Mason Richey, a professor at Hankuk University of Foreign Studies in Seoul.

    "At least one member of the U.S.-North Korea diplomatic 'bromance' is mature enough to admit that personal feelings are just that," Richey added.

    "Kim Kye Gwan's statement doesn't close the door on diplomacy any more than it already was, but he underlined how the U.S. and North Korea have fundamentally different strategic interests with almost no meaningful overlap."

    WARNING TO SOUTH KOREA

    The North Korean adviser also cautioned South Korea to steer clear of ties between the North and the United States, saying it should not seek "to play a mediator role".

    On Friday, a South Korean official said Trump had asked the South Koreans to pass on birthday greetings to North Korea.

    For South Korea to meddle in personal relations between Kim and Trump was "presumptuous", the North Korean adviser said, adding that the North had already directly received from Trump a letter with the greetings.

    "But they seem not to know that there is a special liaison channel between the top leaders of the DPRK and the United States."

    South Korea's presidential Blue House declined to comment.

    The North's comments come after South Korean President Moon Jae-in's administration signaled it wanted to renew "independent" economic engagement with the North, Richey added.

    "This is another slap in the face, which Moon seems determined to accept ad infinitum."
    _____________
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  9. #909
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    I'm sure S Korea knows about the "Special Relationship" between Trump and Kim after the latest shakedown attempt

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/14/polit...ike/index.html

    Washington (CNN)Secretary of Defense Mark Esper landed in South Korea on Thursday to navigate renewed threats from an "enraged" North Korea and newly heightened strain in the alliance with Seoul that congressional aides, lawmakers and Korea experts say has been caused by President Donald Trump.

    Trump is demanding that South Korea pay roughly 400% more in 2020 to cover the cost of keeping US troops on the peninsula, a congressional aide and an administration official confirmed to CNN.
    The price hike has frustrated Pentagon officials and deeply concerned Republican and Democratic lawmakers, according to military officials and congressional aides. It has angered and unnerved Seoul, where leaders are questioning US commitment to their alliance and wondering whether Trump will pull US forces if they don't pay up.
    "Nothing says I love you like a shakedown," said Vipin Narang, an associate professor at MIT who follows the Korean peninsula, summarizing South Korean uncertainty about the US.
    Hard feelings
    In the US, congressional aides and Korea experts familiar with the talks say the President's $4.7 billion demand came out of thin air, sending State and Defense Department officials scrambling to justify the number with a slew of new charges that may include Seoul paying some costs for US personnel present on the peninsula and for troops and equipment that rotate through.
    Negotiations are underway as North Korea threatens to step up its weapons development, deepening Seoul's anxiety. On Thursday, Pyongyang condemned US-South Korean joint military exercises, saying it was "enraged" and threatening to respond with "force in kind."
    North Korea has already launched 24 missiles this year, each a violation of UN resolutions, to match the country's previous annual record for firing off projectiles that threaten South Korea and Japan, according to Bruce Klingner, a senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation.
    Germany, France and the United Kingdom recently condemned Pyongyang for the launches, saying they undermined regional security and stability. Meanwhile, South Korean leaders are acutely aware that Trump has downplayed the launches, saying he is "not at all" troubled by them.
    "There are a lot of hard feelings," Klingner said of South Korean views of the US right now, adding that "people are questioning the viability of the US as an ally."
    That's being driven in part by US acquiescence to North Korea's missile launches, which "is raising angst... about whether the US is a reliable ally," Klingner said. "The exorbitant push to further increase the US demand for the cost of stationing US forces overseas is adding to that."
    Scott Snyder, director of the US-Korea policy program at the Council on Foreign Relations, said the extreme nature of the price hike is creating "worry that Trump is doing this as a pretext for withdrawal" of US troops.
    "The main side effect that I see is that it raises questions about the credibility of the United States as a protector, as an alliance partner," Snyder said. "And that's not good for the relationship."
    The administration official said the argument is that the US does many things to ensure South Korean security that haven't been accurately accounted for, for decades. "It was one thing when Korea was recovering from the war, but now they're one of the world's leading economies," the official said.
    "The Koreans have said themselves they ultimately want to take over the security of Korea and stand as a peer in the security sphere," the official said. Now, "they need to make some fundamental investments to get where they say they want to be, so this is an opportunity for them."
    Shared responsibility
    A spokesperson for the State Department, which has the lead on negotiations, said that "sustaining the costs of our global military presence is not a burden that should fall on the US taxpayer alone, but is a responsibility that should be shared fairly with allies and partners who benefit from our presence."
    The Korean embassy did not return requests for comment.
    The US-South Korea cost sharing agreement has been in place for decades and, until Trump, was renegotiated every five years. During the 2016 campaign, candidate Trump declared that he would pull US troops from the peninsula if he didn't get 100% compensation for their presence.
    Last year, when the Special Measures Agreement came up for negotiation, Trump asked for a 50% increase from Seoul. Ultimately, the two sides agreed South Korea would pay 8% over the prior year's cost, but that the agreement would be renegotiated yearly.
    This year, Trump raised the asking price from approximately $1 billion to $5 billion before being convinced by officials at the State Department and Pentagon to winnow that down to $4.7 billion, according to a congressional aide and the administration official.
    Esper, like other administration officials, has refused to confirm that figure publicly, saying Wednesday only that "we have asked for a significant increase in the cost-sharing for our deployed troops."
    'A backwards process'
    Klingner is one of several Korea experts who suggest that Trump pulled the figure out of thin air. Officials at the relevant agencies and aides in Congress who follow Asia are similarly perplexed. "I have no idea where the President pulled this number from," said the congressional aide.
    "It seems pretty clear ... that State and DOD were working to figure out how to justify the $5 billion figure... it's not like, 'We were developing a new concept that includes the following 17 categories and this is what it comes to.' It was a backwards process," said the aide characterized the reaction to be one of shock, " 'the President wants $5 billion and how do we justify that to the Koreans?' They were throwing everything in there that allowed them to argue with a straight face that this covers the burden-sharing costs of the alliance."
    To justify the price tag, officials at State and the Pentagon expanded the costs Seoul would cover "from basing, sewage, the usual things, to include 'readiness,'" the aide said. Administration officials would not confirm that.
    But it could mean charging Seoul for joint military exercises, including rotational forces that aren't always present on the peninsula. "So if we had bombers stop by the peninsula as a show of force, I guess like an Uber driver, we would bill them for the trip," the aide said.
    The US may also ask South Korea to pay for "a whole range of personnel costs for US personnel stationed on Peninsula," the aide said. In response, the aide said, the Koreans are asking, " 'Are you guys mercenaries now? Is this a business arrangement?' "

    Military officials have told CNN they are distressed about the request and that they have been concerned the President's foreign policy decision making could increasingly be shaped by his concerns about the 2020 election campaign or impeachment pressure.
    The congressional aide said Pentagon officials are expressing their discomfort on Capitol Hill as well. "The career professionals and career military: they're beside themselves," the aide said, "but [Trump is] the commander in chief, so they're in a box."
    "The Koreans are outraged," the aide continued, particularly because elections are coming in April and they don't think the cost increase is defensible in their National Assembly.
    Council on Foreign Relations expert Snyder said that historically, the formula for cost sharing has seen increases of 5% to 10%, but "the gap between 5% and almost 500%... stretches the bounds of political plausibility."
    A particular hurdle, Snyder said, is any request that Seoul pay for assets "that may be used in the event of a conflict, but that aren't actually based in Korea. That's the most sensitive question if you're talking about the Korean taxpayer."
    'A lot of concern'
    Sen. Edward Markey, the leading Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations subcommittee on Asia said that he was "troubled by President Trump's demand. ... If South Korea decides that it is better off without the United States, President Trump will have undermined an over 60-year shared commitment to peace, stability, and rule of law. The region is less safe when countries lose confidence in America's ability to lead."
    Sen. Cory Gardner of Colorado, the Republican chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations subcommittee on Asia, did not respond to repeated requests for comment. Neither did the second ranking Republican on the subcommittee, Sen. Marco Rubio of Florida, or the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Sen. James Risch of Idaho.
    Behind closed doors though, the congressional aide echoed another colleague on Capitol Hill, saying that "there's a lot of concern up here with both Democratic and Republican staff. People ... are not happy. They think this is really dangerous."
    Human Scum. Proud Never Trumper

  10. #910
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    Trump had to be persuaded by his national security staff to stay in ROK in the first place.

    so as far as he's concerned, if the ROKs boot us out of the Pen over SMA, then that's heads I win, tails you lose.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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