Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 47

Thread: Game of Thrones Season 7 Episode 4 "Spoils of War"

  1. #1
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,662

    Game of Thrones Season 7 Episode 4 "Spoils of War"

    I truly suggest You Tubing the battle scene. It was epic, the most full body burns by stuntment ever recorded. It is a superb blend of close in action scenes with wider panorama shots of the bigger battle set against a tapestry of past events and strategic implications. Though it involves dragons and swords, you can watch the implications of a modern battle unfold.

    First some backdrop, Queen Cersi has been on a winning streak. She has sunk parts of the Targaryan navy(twice), stranded its expeditionary force at Casterly Rock, smashed its biggest allied army at Highgarden in The Reach (and looted it of a huge amount of gold and supplies), decapitated the head of state of another ally (Dorne) and in short seems to be winning. The only loss to date has been the destruction of the Frey's which endanger the third of her army doing occupation duty and fighting an insurgency in the Riverlands. However, Danyeris Targaryan still has enough ships to land her main force of Dothraki Horselords on the Continent. Though the journey across the sea has cost them their presumed massive remount herds, the ships are a handy way to preserve strategic mobility. Something she decides to use to devastating effect.

    In the beginning the 2nd in command Randal Tarly rides up to Jamie Lannister and reports all the gold is safely inside the gates at Kings Landing, but the rear of the Army where Jamie is needs to get a move on becuase the front cannot support it due to a terrain feature. Now to me this tells me they know trouble is in the area.That the Targaryan's landing was not unnoticed. Not shown but surmised is they have light horse out screening. Sadly for the Lannister Army, they didn't, didn't have enough, or were not good enough becuase over the horizon comes the Dothraki (mix Mongol and Soiux Indian). In short they lost the recon battle and now have to pay the piper his dues.

    The Lannisters hurry to form a 3 sided line with their backs to the sea creating a box. However they only have spears and some archers, no pike, caltrops, swinefeathers, horse mounted troops, reserves of any kind, hope of relief, no way to retreat and no artillery. If the lines breaks, or rather at every point it breaks some part of the army will be cut off. The Dothraki are in full charge, though why light horse would deliver a shock charge eludes me. Still they have the numbers to win, but then everything goes (even more) pear shaped for the already doomed Lannister Army. The Mother of Dragons makes her appearance on Drogon The Dragon now fully grown to the size of a jumbo jet.

    You instantly see the infantry's will too battle wither. Just his appearance shakes them to their core, death is in the air and they know it as surely as if it was an A-10 bearing down on them. His opening strike is devastating, and entire chunk of the line is melted out of existence and the Dothraki pour through the gap as the poor saps on either side of the fire line break and run. With no real reserves the battle is now over expect for the dying at this point. But Drogon does not stop. he proceeds to carve up the battlefeild with fire and smoke making it impossible for the Lannister Army to exercise any type of command and control. in fact Jamie Lannister ends up commanding a group of archers in a tactical role rather than directing his army.

    Even the anti-hero Bronn's heroic efforts to man the sole scorpion the Lannister Army has end up in vain. Though he wounds Drogon, it too late to save the army. The line is shattered, there is no organized resistance left and Lannister troops are shown fleeing and being ridden down. This one battle totally changes the strategic picture. Though Cersi still has the gold, massive fortresses and the biggest navy, now that the main Targaryan force is ashore she is locked behind city/castle walls. Her infantry army and how ever many heavy horse her knights give her are no match in the open for the Dothraki. One third of her army got roasted, one third is trapped in the Riverlands and the final third is trapped in Kings Landing. Her ability to impose her will on the Continent is for the moment over. She can't threaten the North or the Ayrie or impose her rule on the Dornish or the Reach or Liberate Casterly Rock. Her rule is reduced to Kings Landing and areas behind it including Old Town, the Iron Islands, The Twins and the Riverlands. Her two main commanders are either dead or captured. The Dothraki rule where they ride. It was in short a stunning reversal of fortune, though its Game of Thrones so the scales will surely tip back her way somehow.

  2. #2
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
    Join Date
    08 Aug 13
    Location
    Kansas City, United States
    Posts
    1,293
    The odd thing to me is that Dany mostly focused Drogon's flames on the wagons and carts carrying the harvest from the Reach rather than the men defending them. While denying the enemy food supplies is a good thing, the Dothraki were in position to overwhelm the Lannister defenders anyway, and she could have focused on breaking defensive strong points and taken the food supplies intact.

    Securing food supplies that may be desperately needed in the near future would have been a better strategic move and returning some to the peasants would have provided some good PR to counter the inevitable bad press that results from burning men alive with dragon fire.

  3. #3
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
    Join Date
    08 Aug 13
    Location
    Kansas City, United States
    Posts
    1,293
    Name:  DGt8kykU0AAbfua.jpg
Views: 302
Size:  173.6 KB

  4. #4
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,662
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    The odd thing to me is that Dany mostly focused Drogon's flames on the wagons and carts carrying the harvest from the Reach rather than the men defending them. While denying the enemy food supplies is a good thing, the Dothraki were in position to overwhelm the Lannister defenders anyway, and she could have focused on breaking defensive strong points and taken the food supplies intact.

    Securing food supplies that may be desperately needed in the near future would have been a better strategic move and returning some to the peasants would have provided some good PR to counter the inevitable bad press that results from burning men alive with dragon fire.
    Burnign wagons make for good visuals for TV. That being said, the clash likely represented 3-5000 Lannisters and 20-40,000 Dothraki so next week will show or at some point it will be mentioned how great her haul of supplies was. tactically, the burning wagons made command and control impossible. All the typical medieval signaling technologies; mirrors, flags and semifores would be useless on a battlefield obscured by smoke leaving only bugles ad voice commands which are less than effective for people wearing full helmets and banging hard pointy things against hard but flat things.

  5. #5
    Administrator
    Lei Feng Protege
    Defense Professional
    Join Date
    23 Aug 05
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    13,165
    that was a LOT of fun to watch: mass and you get incinerated by flames...spread out and you're easy pickings for the Dothraki.

    Dany threaded the ethical needle, too; use the dragon against the army, but not against the civilians of King's Landing.

    also, i very much enjoyed the sparring scene between Arya and Brienne.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s4pbxNMLL0

    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...s-right-handed
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  6. #6
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,662
    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    that was a LOT of fun to watch: mass and you get incinerated by flames...spread out and you're easy pickings for the Dothraki.
    And now Cersi is bottled up in Kings landing. She can use the Iron Fleet to raid along the coast, but the interior is lost. If dany heads North, then another third of the Lannister Army encamped around Riverun and the Twins is lost.

    Dany threaded the ethical needle, too; use the dragon against the army, but not against the civilians of King's Landing.
    But almost within view of the city, just on the other side of the Blackwater.

    also, i very much enjoyed the sparring scene between Arya and Brienne.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s4pbxNMLL0

    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...s-right-handed
    I did as well, she is my favorite action hero on the series.

  7. #7
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Jan 07
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    9,267
    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Burnign wagons make for good visuals for TV. That being said, the clash likely represented 3-5000 Lannisters and 20-40,000 Dothraki so next week will show or at some point it will be mentioned how great her haul of supplies was. tactically, the burning wagons made command and control impossible. All the typical medieval signaling technologies; mirrors, flags and semifores would be useless on a battlefield obscured by smoke leaving only bugles ad voice commands which are less than effective for people wearing full helmets and banging hard pointy things against hard but flat things.
    I reckon you might be over-estimating the Dothraki force Z. There is no way she shipped that many Dothraki & horses on that fleet. In this show a 'big' army is under 10,000 (that is supposedly the size of the Unsullied). I would have thought the Dothraki force was in that range.

    I must say that I found their tactics odd. They had mounted archers & guys with pike things. Surely the smart move is to hit the ground troops with archers, then let the pike dudes break the shield wall, and finally the sword carriers. Absent dragons they might have struggled.

    Only a minor quibble, however. It was a fun scene in one of the best eps so far. Ever bit of it was good. Bran going all 'Jedi Master', the cave paintings, the whole thing. With the best of the Lannister army gone the Unsullied are now back in the game. I wonder if Dany & Tyrion are going to try to round up stray bannermen from destroyed houses like Tyrell & Frey & perhaps try to get the Dornish back in or if the ywill try to take King's Landing themselves.

    Story moving along nicely.


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  8. #8
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Jan 07
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    9,267
    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    And now Cersi is bottled up in Kings landing. She can use the Iron Fleet to raid along the coast, but the interior is lost. If dany heads North, then another third of the Lannister Army encamped around Riverun and the Twins is lost.
    .
    I thought that siege was ended last season when the Freys took over. I assumed the Lannister army went home after that. Did they get sent up again after Frey was killed? That reminds me, the Tullys are no fans of the Lannisters either. They might come on board


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  9. #9
    Administrator
    Lei Feng Protege
    Defense Professional
    Join Date
    23 Aug 05
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    13,165
    now i wonder if Cersei will be using that gold to pay back the Iron Bank or to hire out the Golden Company to make up for the recent losses she took.

    she also lost the food that she was going for, so really Dany could go back to the original Tyrion strategy and just starve 'em out.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  10. #10
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
    Join Date
    08 Aug 13
    Location
    Kansas City, United States
    Posts
    1,293
    The real target that needs to get hit with dragonfire is Euron's fleet. Taking away the opposition's strategic mobility has got to be a priority. Particularly when his fleet seems to be capable of teleportation...

    When Dany dispatched two fleets to the south in Episode 3, Euron was apparently in position to intercept the Ironborn bound for Dorne (but somehow missed the Unsullied?). I don't have any issues with that, but when he is able to sail back north to King's Landing for ceremonies and witty commentary, then turn around and head south once again and somehow catch the Unsullied at the same time as they arrived at Casterly Rock? The Unsullied ships had a half continent head start at that point!

    I initially thought that Euron must have divided his fleet and sent a raven with orders to ambush Casterly Rock to a contingent on the west coast, but his flagship was present at both fights...

  11. #11
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Jan 07
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    9,267
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    The real target that needs to get hit with dragonfire is Euron's fleet. Taking away the opposition's strategic mobility has got to be a priority. Particularly when his fleet seems to be capable of teleportation...

    When Dany dispatched two fleets to the south in Episode 3, Euron was apparently in position to intercept the Ironborn bound for Dorne (but somehow missed the Unsullied?). I don't have any issues with that, but when he is able to sail back north to King's Landing for ceremonies and witty commentary, then turn around and head south once again and somehow catch the Unsullied at the same time as they arrived at Casterly Rock? The Unsullied ships had a half continent head start at that point!

    I initially thought that Euron must have divided his fleet and sent a raven with orders to ambush Casterly Rock to a contingent on the west coast, but his flagship was present at both fights...
    I agree that it all seemed to happen a bit quickly, but that is simply the pace of events changing from previous seasons. They have stopped building story lines & characters and started in with some serious resolving. That means they aren't marking the passage of time as they once did. Sometimes it gets a wee bit silly and the editing could be better, but I get what they are doing.

    Thinking about the second naval battle, I wonder if he did send part of the fleet ahead & then caught them up in his bigger, faster flagship. A small irritation. I notice they were a bit more careful about indicating time passing this week.

    And yes, the dragons need to sink that fleet.


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  12. #12
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
    Join Date
    26 Aug 06
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    1,323
    Way better than the "strategy" in Battle of the Bastards, IMO.

    Dothraki+Unsullied+Dragons is a pretty unstoppable combination, so I don't think there was ever a question whether Dany was going to win. In the original conquest, 3 Dragons roasted the combined armies of the Reach and Westerlands.

    Even the Dothraki alone aren't really beatable, even before the War of the Five Kings weakened everyone. Robert said as much when he wanted to assassinate Dany. You can't stop them in the Open Field since Westerosi are pretty weak on cavalry. Presumably parts of Westeros can resist, but it'd cease to exist as a united kingdom.

    I imagine the Golden Company is coming over, otherwise why reference them? In the books, GC has their own preferred candidate for King and I believe are founded by Secret Blackfyres. So I wonder if that will play a role.

    Also wonder if Jaime Lannister is actually Azor Ahai reborn, and gets his special flame sword after killing Cersei.

    Last GOT plot-twist I'd expect is for Dany to die. So I'll bank on that one.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  13. #13
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    15 Dec 06
    Posts
    1,013
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    I must say that I found their tactics odd. They had mounted archers & guys with pike things. Surely the smart move is to hit the ground troops with archers, then let the pike dudes break the shield wall, and finally the sword carriers. Absent dragons they might have struggled.
    Unlike the Mongols who they are based on, the Dothraki aren't big on tactics. It's basically every rider out for personal glory. Charge in screaming and cut heads off, which is basically what they were shown trying to do in that battle.

    In the books, the Unsullied are said to have got their reputation partly because of a historical event in which 3000 unsullied hired by some city in Essos withstood repeated charges by a 25000 strong Dothraki horde. The Dothraki could have outflanked and surrounded them easily but being Dothraki they charged straight on again and again attempting to ride them down. This cost them their king his sons and bodyguards along with thousands of others. When they accepted defeat and left only 600 unsullied were left alive. But they were still standing with their formation intact

  14. #14
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Jan 07
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    9,267
    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    Unlike the Mongols who they are based on, the Dothraki aren't big on tactics. It's basically every rider out for personal glory. Charge in screaming and cut heads off, which is basically what they were shown trying to do in that battle.

    In the books, the Unsullied are said to have got their reputation partly because of a historical event in which 3000 unsullied hired by some city in Essos withstood repeated charges by a 25000 strong Dothraki horde. The Dothraki could have outflanked and surrounded them easily but being Dothraki they charged straight on again and again attempting to ride them down. This cost them their king his sons and bodyguards along with thousands of others. When they accepted defeat and left only 600 unsullied were left alive. But they were still standing with their formation intact
    That all makes sense, but the makers of the show stuffed it up a bit by showing a group using bow & arrow. Not really a 'death or glory' weapon. Didn't spoil the scene, just a curio.

    I can see how a combination of Unsullied infantry & Dothraki cavalry would be damned near unstoppable, even without dragons. Westeros seems to be running out of armies. Stannis, the Tyrells & most of the Lannisters gone. The Tullys beaten and only 10,000 men in the North. Seems like only the Knights of the Vale and the Dorne are in much shape. Interesting.

    Looking forward to how all this resolves.


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  15. #15
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,662
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    I reckon you might be over-estimating the Dothraki force Z. There is no way she shipped that many Dothraki & horses on that fleet. In this show a 'big' army is under 10,000 (that is supposedly the size of the Unsullied). I would have thought the Dothraki force was in that range.
    40,000 is a conservative estimate based ion Robert Baratheon's prediction to Cersi before he died. It also aligns with the books. Her fleet is shown making one crossing, but not only one crossing. Given season 7's skipping of the journeys and going straight to the good parts, a good deal of time has passed since she landed on Dragon Stone.

    I must say that I found their tactics odd. They had mounted archers & guys with pike things. Surely the smart move is to hit the ground troops with archers, then let the pike dudes break the shield wall, and finally the sword carriers. Absent dragons they might have struggled.
    Witout true pikes, more arches and caltrops the Lannisters were doomed even by banzai charges. I think the Dothraki had to sacrifice Mongol/Souix tactics for TV visuals.

    Only a minor quibble, however. It was a fun scene in one of the best eps so far. Ever bit of it was good. Bran going all 'Jedi Master', the cave paintings, the whole thing. With the best of the Lannister army gone the Unsullied are now back in the game. I wonder if Dany & Tyrion are going to try to round up stray bannermen from destroyed houses like Tyrell & Frey & perhaps try to get the Dornish back in or if the ywill try to take King's Landing themselves.

    Story moving along nicely.
    You'd think she'd want the Dornish, but there is a problem of the Iron Fleet between them and her.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. A Game of Thrones: HBO series
    By Wayfarer in forum Movie & TV Room
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 21 Jun 11,, 20:03
  2. Anybody see the Frontline Episode "Kill/Capture" last night?
    By Blademaster in forum Operation Enduring Freedom and Af-Pak
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 13 May 11,, 15:35
  3. China "claims" to have cracked "another" terrorist Cell for Olympics
    By ned kelly in forum International Economy
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 28 Jul 08,, 23:10
  4. Russian tank "Black Eagle" ("object 640")
    By foxhound_nn in forum Ground Warfare
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 27 Dec 07,, 06:53

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •