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Thread: New Navy FFG(X) RFI released

  1. #46
    Military Professional JCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JA Boomer View Post
    I find it interesting that no picture or model was presented with their bid. Is there a chance it isn't based on the Legend-class hull?

    Regardless I think the Ingalls design is the right choice for a frigate for the USN. The European designs are approaching destroyer classifications, while the LCS designs are still compromised from the LCS design requirements.
    That's a very good question, it probably wasn't a requirement of the RFI and Ingalls may not have thought it necessary to get through this first stage.

    While VLS may not be a part of the requirement (I haven't reviewed the RFI lately, but I don't think that it is), it may be seen as something that is necessary to win. With FREMM having a 16-cell VLS and the F100 a 48(!) cell VLS adding to their size, I wonder how much the Legend cutter would have to grow to accommodate a decent sized VLS.

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    [QUOTE=Not to mention that helos take time to set up, launch and deploy. And are useless in air defense...[/QUOTE]

    The UK AEW for its carrier is helicopter based. More air assets on a small hull. Wouldn't that require more fuel, that you have to tanker?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed View Post
    The UK AEW for its carrier is helicopter based. More air assets on a small hull. Wouldn't that require more fuel, that you have to tanker?
    That helo, the EH-101, while having the same basic lengh of the Seahawk, is a full meter taller and weighs almost twice. And the AEW model, once coverted to that, becomes a single-mission helo; not exacly a pratical move, in a 1-helo ship...

  4. #49
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCT View Post
    All nice ideas, but mixing different varieties of helos increases the logistics footprint on the ship. You'd need entirely different maintenance crews, spares, etc. It'd work for a day or two, but not longer than that. Army birds are not navalized and that environment will quickly ruin them.

    A laser guidance kit requires a laser and most helos do not have this if it isn't in their mission set. Integrating one is not a short or cheap process.

    Back in the day, DDs darted around the islands when the shooting started, but today, no-one does that anymore. You put your platform on a reef and your career is done.
    Cobras are USMC birds, although Apaches have seen their share of maritime usage as well. The Army has used Apaches in Rimpac exercises and the British operated Apaches off HMS Ocean in Libya so perhaps they have some navalized features already? In regards to spares, it'll take more space, but the LCS already has room for 180 tons worth of mission module equipment which encompasses an active mission module with another aboard in reserve, so I expect finding somewhere to put more stuff is an achievable goal. The crew issue is probably going to be a bit more of a hurdle as I've heard some of the biggest issues with them stem from underestimating manning requirement and utilizing stupid crew rotations to try to cut it even further.

    APKWS II has been integrated with USN helicopters for about 6 years now and is compatible with Cobras, Venoms, and Seahawks. It's particularly popular because you can swap a pylon with 4 Hellfires for a 500 lb pod that carries 19 laser guided rockets. It's a good a answer to the Iranian swarming tactics that got Gen. Van Ripper a lot of attention back in 2002.

    10,000 ton DDGs really don't have any business darting around islands anymore, especially since ours are big, expensive, and built to dominate blue water. They aren't the 2000 ton Fletchers of yore, but a 2300 ton LCS is another matter and with half the draft of a Burke, they don't have to be shy about darting around the shallows.
    Last edited by SteveDaPirate; 21 Feb 18, at 21:29.

  5. #50
    Military Professional JCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    Cobras are USMC birds, although Apaches have seen their share of maritime usage as well. The Army has used Apaches in Rimpac exercises and the British operated Apaches off HMS Ocean in Libya so perhaps they have some navalized features already? In regards to spares, it'll take more space, but the LCS already has room for 180 tons worth of mission module equipment which encompasses an active mission module with another aboard in reserve, so I expect finding somewhere to put more stuff is an achievable goal. The crew issue is probably going to be a bit more of a hurdle as I've heard some of the biggest issues with them stem from underestimating manning requirement and utilizing stupid crew rotations to try to cut it even further.

    APKWS II has been integrated with USN helicopters for about 6 years now and is compatible with Cobras, Venoms, and Seahawks. It's particularly popular because you can swap a pylon with 4 Hellfires for a 500 lb pod that carries 19 laser guided rockets. It's a good a answer to the Iranian swarming tactics that got Gen. Van Ripper a lot of attention back in 2002.

    10,000 ton DDGs really don't have any business darting around islands anymore, especially since ours are big, expensive, and built to dominate blue water. They aren't the 2000 ton Fletchers of yore, but a 2300 ton LCS is another matter and with half the draft of a Burke, they don't have to be shy about darting around the shallows.
    Yep Cobras are USMC birds, called them in for direct support in Iraq. They have an entirely different maintenance footprint from H60s; you will not see mixed aircraft mixes for a full deployment on anything smaller than a big deck (CVN, LHD, etc). The MH-60R is probably the helo that you want with ASW and ASuW capabilities (I had to look it up) and is capable of shooting Hellfire II missiles, so it most likely can lase the target for the APKWS. The Navy is still fielding them - they are not everywhere yet. Numbers are an issue as not every DDG deploys with a helo det, so not every LCS will get one, not to mention the 3-4 you propose.

    Due to their sensor and comms limitations, LCS is not going to want to mix it up in a multi-dimensional threat scenario. A lot of corners were cut during their construction and it will take a lot of money and time to correct their deficiencies. From what I've heard, the FREMM and F100 platforms are excellent. Better to take a known GOOD platform as opposed to a platform that has significant issues. Some of the increased displacement of the other ships are due to steel hulls, not aluminum.

  6. #51
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    The main gun on the LCS....the 57mm. Do I not know enough about this weapon or does it appear the LCS is woefully under gunned? I figured it would need to be at least the OTO Melara 76 mm to be worthwhile.

    Am I missing something?
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    The main gun on the LCS....the 57mm. Do I not know enough about this weapon or does it appear the LCS is woefully under gunned? I figured it would need to be at least the OTO Melara 76 mm to be worthwhile.

    Am I missing something?
    It does seem to be more of a corvete/FAC gun caliber, although at least Canada uses it in frigates. I guess it's higher ROF seems to make it more suitable to fight fast air/sea targets...

  8. #53
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    The main gun on the LCS....the 57mm. Do I not know enough about this weapon or does it appear the LCS is woefully under gunned? I figured it would need to be at least the OTO Melara 76 mm to be worthwhile.

    Am I missing something?
    Supposedly both the 57mm and 76mm have an effective range of about 8km so it should handily outrange any piratical types waving .50 cals and RPGs around. With airburst munitions it looks pretty well suited for engaging infantry, small boats, or larger unarmored targets.

    I guess it begs the question of what kinds of things do you expect the LCS to shoot with it's gun? Anything corvette sized and larger would probably be engaged with the Naval Strike Missiles they've decided to put aboard rather than getting up close and personal.

    For the FFG proposal I could see them scaling up to the 76mm if space/tonnage allow.

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    New version of the 76, the Super Rapido with Strales System, sounds like a very nasty gun...

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    New version of the 76, the Super Rapido with Strales System, sounds like a very nasty gun...
    If they're using it in the CIWS role, I would say so.

  11. #56
    Senior Contributor JA Boomer's Avatar
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    If you were designing a frigate to meet the USN's requirements, what would it look like?

    Displacement: 5,000 tons
    Length: 135 meters
    Helicopters: 2 MH-60R
    Boats: 2 RHIBs, via deck crane
    Weapons:
    -3" super rapid
    -32 cell Mk 41 VLS (32 ESSM, 4 ASROC, 4 NSM, 16 SM-3)
    -2 Millennium Gun (port and starboard)
    -2 RAM (fore and aft)
    -2 Mk 32 torpedo launchers (port and starboard)
    Sensors:
    -SMART-S radar
    -2 towed arrays

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by JA Boomer View Post
    If they're using it in the CIWS role, I would say so.
    Not just that. Check the list of ammo available.

    Quote Originally Posted by JA Boomer View Post
    If you were designing a frigate to meet the USN's requirements, what would it look like?

    Displacement: 5,000 tons
    Length: 135 meters
    Helicopters: 2 MH-60R
    Boats: 2 RHIBs, via deck crane
    Weapons:
    -3" super rapid
    -32 cell Mk 41 VLS (32 ESSM, 4 ASROC, 4 NSM, 16 SM-3)
    -2 Millennium Gun (port and starboard)
    -2 RAM (fore and aft)
    -2 Mk 32 torpedo launchers (port and starboard)
    Sensors:
    -SMART-S radar
    -2 towed arrays
    Perfect. Just don't let them try for 40 knots speed...

  13. #58
    Senior Contributor JA Boomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    Perfect. Just don't let them try for 40 knots speed...
    Agreed. Should have added 30 knot speed via CODOG propulsion with two GE LM2500 gas turbines and a diesel engine.

  14. #59
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    Something tells me this won't be happening.

    https://news.usni.org/2018/05/30/fin...ore#more-33972

    ...but that espresso machine....
    Last edited by thebard; 30 May 18, at 20:38.

  15. #60
    Senior Contributor JA Boomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebard View Post
    Something tells me this won't be happening.

    https://news.usni.org/2018/05/30/fin...ore#more-33972

    ...but that espresso machine....
    I'm more impressed with the washrooms. Outfitted with bidets, heated towel racks, and hair blowers. Spared no expense!

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