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Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

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  • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Still does not change the fact that it was a freaking brawl with ZERO military significance.

    They don't want your rocks. They're testing your resolve and response. Hence, zero military excalation from their side.

    If you're not fighting to win, you're already defeated. But you misunderstood the reference. Using the past to predict your enemy is the quickest way to be surprised by your enemy.
    I think we've done what was necessary up to this point.

    If they're looking for resolve this govt has it in spades.

    Two instances. Country wide lock down for corona virus & notes ban back in 2016 that invalidated 86% over night, of the monetary value circulating in cash. It was done to invalidate fake currency suspected to have entered the country in amounts that would be used for terror.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 02 Aug 20,, 07:27.

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    • The US-India partnership, she said, “is about much more than economics and security. It’s also about the democratic traditions that have made both of our countries more prosperous and secure.” Ms. Curtis said there would be a deepening of the U.S.-India partnership based on a commitment both countries have to an open and transparent region in the Indo Pacific. “ You will see more of a focus on building up that relationship and also ensuring that the other nations of South and central Asia can maintain their own sovereignty and they have choices and alternatives to China.”
      She's talking about values.

      Brits & Americans reached this same conclusion in the 1870s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
        Are you going to lose men to keep those rocks or are you going to use those rocks to kill the enemy? I know which I would do. Because the Chinese just learned exactly how to do just that. An entire Indian coy rushed forward with zero back up and zero covering fire since obviously no one at Bde level knew what was going on.
        Yeah, it was a clear breach of trust. Conduct exercises then mobilise after.

        They unilaterally decided to throw out agreements we had going back over twenty years.

        If we do the same then we will end up losing more men and making your point more pertinent.

        Things cannot continue as is, we will have to come up with some new ways to deal with China.

        Broad spectrum.


        Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
        It was called the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, and the Fenian Raids. Canada and the US had went to war and up until WWI, we had plans to invade each other.
        When Justin was last over, your defense minister, the sardar, mentioned how Canada burnt the US Capitol down in 1812.

        In other words Canada attacked the US parliament !!!

        To a wide eyed Indian audience who could not digest such an action : D

        Because as Oracle said we imagine North America is that safe neighbourhood where no body attacks any one.

        That is from the 20th century onward. Things were different prior to that.

        US is lucky to have made it to the 20th C in one piece given the designs of the British, French & Spanish in centuries prior.
        Last edited by Double Edge; 02 Aug 20,, 10:03.

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        • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
          If you're talking about the headline, then 'clickbait' headline attract local audience. Web portals have to generate revenue afterall.
          A curious article from David Devdas.

          Not come across any commentary from him on military aspects or standoffs past or present.

          Long time J&K watcher, he's mostly about J&K politics. He's written a couple of books about J&K. How the centre should win over the people of J&K.

          Suffice to say he found no traction with this govt for his ideas at all.

          Since J&K is his stomping ground he feels the need to comment.

          Remember this talk he gave at ORF and it was Sushant Sareen who introduced him, going by his opening remarks you could tell he did not agree with David's ideas at all.

          This means i was expecting David to be negative about the whole affair. Far from India teaching China a lesson more on the lines of how China caught us with our pants down sort of thing.

          One of the Chinese looked important. So, later that night, a spirited bunch of soldiers decided to grab him and carry him back.

          When the Chinese commander called up to ask worriedly about him, it turned out that he was the officer in charge of the PLA special forces in Galwan.

          Of course, capturing a special forces officer is a huge feather in any military cap. As one officer exulted: "The catch was definitely prized. Just think (it is like) we get the CO of the (US)Navy Seals."

          Two very different Indian officers have told me that that Chinese officer's capture decidedly turned the tide of the battle at Galwan. The Chinese morale nosedived.
          There was an exchange after the incident but this is the first i hear of their CO being captured.

          Later that night, a group of Gorkha soldiers joined battle along with a team of engineers who, I am told, wrought havoc of a different sort in the fourth phase of the battle at Galwan, completing the military objective of that night's operation.

          After the major setback with which the night began, it is truly commendable that the military objective was achieved amid the fog of war which, in every sense of that term, enveloped that night.

          I hope the officers who led the fight back are duly recognised on Republic Day if not on this Independence Day. The country must acknowledge how valiantly the army fought against great odds that night.

          The government, which initially focused on preventing escalation, must re-think how to treat the battle of Galwan in light of the clear evidence that has emerged in the last six weeks that China is in any case intent on escalating hostilities right across the two countries' boundaries.
          And what was the military objective for that night ? tit for tat ? more kung fu ? its not clear to me.

          It appears David is not at liberty to say.

          No mention about water being dammed up and then being released as the sat pics have proven.

          But he leaves us a clue.

          Now what would a team of engineers be useful for ? demolition isn't it.

          Of SOME THING which the govt will not admit : )

          Because this SOME THING was clearly inside Chinese territory. Maybe that is the reason.

          Next reason would be GOI did not want its hand to be forced by going public with this development.

          Deal with it without being pressured by the opposition to go to war over it. Note how the opposition also did not mention water but kept harping on about territory being nibbled.

          Wang Yi did mention we transgressed into their side.

          Jaishankar mentioned this 'structure' he had an issue with. Some people mentioned to me there might have been a landslide that occurred which blocked up the river. Meaning it was natural. I have my doubts about that because of the timing and the foreign minister would not mention the word structure in that case. So it was the Chinese who blocked the river as a pressure point.

          Even AIM's initial reporting was talking about the water in a round about way. His second article linked here from Jun 2 did not leave much of an impression with me. Circumspect. Vague. Only other reporter to talk about the water was Vishnu Som. Nothing from Nitin.

          If there is a lesson being taught here it is the Chinese cannot dam up water and expect us to be passive about it.
          Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Aug 20,, 07:50.

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          • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
            I mean the entire thing. A GREAT VICTORY? It was a FEAKING BRAWL. The only thing this article showed (if true) is that the Indians are better at HTH combat and maybe a shield wall since I've seen no shields on the Chinese side.

            I WOULD NOT USE THIS ENTIRE INCIDENT AS ANY INDICATION OF MILITARY PROWNESS BY EITHER SIDE.

            We have a saying in the Combat Engineers. If you're close enough for HTH, this means either the other side is too far up front and their artillery is about to fall or we're too far up front and our artillery is about to fall. In either case, RUN AWAY. I don't freaking care if your entire force comprised of ninja clad Bruce Lees. You're not going to Bruce Lee your way out of incoming fire.

            In a REAL MILITARY FIGHT, the Chinese would plummel you with artillery fire and any Indian soldier who could survive the over blast and shrapnel would still be in physical shock/disoriented. Before your soldiers could recover from the shock, the Chinese would be on you. For Pete sakes, the whole reason why we invented firearms is so we don't have to do HTH. If you're outnumbered, throw a grenade.

            A great military victory my ass. It was a brawl. FULL STOP!
            If my reading of this brawl is right, we fought our first water war with China and succeeded without firing a shot.

            Whether they repeat this stunt again remains to be seen but the reaction will be predictable.

            In the end, what do they have to show for their efforts to date ?

            It's funny, all the Indian commentators told me Pangong is where the business is at.

            Unless more details come out, we've not fought anyone in Pangong this time, we fought in Galwan.

            Galwan was it, in this round.
            Last edited by Double Edge; 02 Aug 20,, 12:57.

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            • Here we go they are probing around in the central sector. Why would they be doing that ?

              Thought they already agreed with the Indian map in that sector to the consternation of the Nepalis

              China moves troops near Lipulekh Pass | HT | Aug 02 2020

              Updated: Aug 02, 2020 06:35 IST
              Shishir Gupta

              New Delhi China has mobilised a battalion strength of People’s Liberation Army (PLA) soldiers near Uttarakhand’s Lipulekh Pass, one of the locations along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) where movement of Chinese troops has been noticed over the last few weeks outside of the Ladakh sector, people familiar with the matter told Hindustan Times.

              India and China have been engaged in a standoff in Eastern Ladakh beginning in early May that flared up on June 15 into the bloodiest clash between soldiers of the two countries in 45 years. Twenty Indian soldiers and an unspecified number of PLA men died in the clash.

              Three weeks later, both sides agreed to start disengagement and de-escalation of troops at the standoff points after a conversation between National Security Adviser Ajit Doval and Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi.

              There has been thinning of troops at the standoff points, but the disengagement is still a work in progress.

              Simultaneously, Indian military officers in Ladakh noticed a huge effort by Chinese troops to bolster their strength in their “depth areas,” and give infrastructure projects on its side a hard push. Chinese troops have augmented their presence on its side of the LAC elsewhere too.

              “There has been accretion of PLA troops across the LAC at Lipulekh Pass, parts of North Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh,” a top military commander said, requesting anonymity.

              Lipulekh Pass, which falls on the Mansarovar Yatra route, has been in the headlines over the last few months after Nepal objected to an 80-km road built by India to the Himalayan pass. The Lipulekh Pass is also used for annual barter trade during June-October between tribal populations living on either side of the Indo-China LAC.

              Kathmandu escalated tensions with India this year after it changed its political map to count the Kalapani area including Lipulekh - which lies close to the tri-junction of India-China-Nepal - as its own.

              At Lipulekh Pass, PLA has moved a battalion - approximately 1,000 soldiers - at some distance from the border.

              “It is a signal that the Chinese troops are prepared,” a second army officer said. He added that India had matched the strength of the PLA troops and was keeping a close watch on Nepal in context of its recent border claims.

              “The situation on the Line of Actual Control remains dynamic with the PLA trying to emphasise its presence beyond Ladakh by building infrastructure on their side of the LAC,” the top military commander quoted above said.

              In Ladakh and elsewhere, the troop movements and mistrust has led the army to prepare to station soldiers in the icy heights of Ladakh through the winter irrespective of how the disengagement and de-escalation efforts pan out.

              The government has already sounded out its embassies in the US, Russia and Europe to locate manufacturers of high-altitude clothing and snow tent manufacturers for emergency purchases. If the supply still falls short, Plan B is to divert stocks from locations such as Thoise, the base station for soldiers deployed in the Siachen Glacier.

              “It looks unlikely that we would be able to take our eyes off the border,” said the army officer, underscoring that this could be the only way for now to make Indian territory off-limits for an expansionist China and hold peace on the border.

              “After the PLA aggression, we don’t trust the Chinese and fear that they will come back again north of Pangong Tso as summer arrives in 2021,” said the military commander.

              Although the PLA has disengaged from patrolling points 14 (Galwan), 15-16 (Hot Springs), a smattering of adversary troops are still on forward location at patrolling point 17 A (Gogra) and withdrawal from all contested finger features is a distance away at Pangong Tso.
              Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Aug 20,, 21:30.

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              • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                If my reading of this brawl is right, we fought our first water war with China and succeeded without firing a shot.

                Whether they repeat this stunt again remains to be seen but the reaction will be predictable.

                In the end, what do they have to show for their efforts to date ?

                It's funny, all the Indian commentators told me Pangong is where the business is at.

                Unless more details come out, we've not fought anyone in Pangong this time, we fought in Galwan.

                Galwan was it, in this round.
                Rajfortyseven has a slightly different take

                How China channelled Galwan river to claim territory | India Today | Jun 21 2020

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                  China has occupied the whole of Doklam, only the tri-junction has been saved by the IA in 2017.
                  As the opposition likes to keep reminding us. Well, what the opposition does not understand is China is occupying a non-tactical position in the Doklam plateau.

                  In layman's speak its a kill zone. In the event of a conflict it would be suicidal to hold on to and they would scatter quickly from that position. Yeah ?

                  Because we dominate that area. Whatever they occupy in Doklam is of zero military value.

                  Kinda like those islands in the SCS they have militarised which are easily disabled via blockade.

                  The only point China gets to make is they can say they have a presence. In peace time. Yay!



                  Two generals with on the ground knowledge of Sikkim. One commanded 4 Corps in Tezpur.

                  They see no way for China to do anything militarily around Sikkim.

                  Interestingly the threat they point out is non-state actors that could interfere with our operations.

                  The 0.5 bit of the 2.5 front war
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 13 Aug 20,, 08:42.

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                  • The strategic insights interviews, Nitin has started with USI are excellent.



                    And here is the central sector



                    Central sector is the shortest and is relatively more peaceful. We're not deployed there neither does either side patrol there much. Whenever they do they leave soon enough.

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                    Red areas in the map below indicate where China has disputes in the Central sector

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                    Barahoti is a grazing ground of around 700 sq kms that China has since long claimed

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                    Tri junction with Lipu Lekh. Settling in Nepal's favour gives China the advantage over the watersheds. So its blatantly clear on whose behest Nepal is pushing their border dispute.

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                    Xianjiang which literally means New borders touches eight countries. Seven if you exclude PO J&K. Very strategically located.

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                    That road was only black topped as late as 2013. Covers the entire border and allows for fast deployment by China.

                    What were they doing at Depsang in 2013.

                    Its interesting Pannu mentions that literally every war India was ever involved in included Ladakh !!

                    They mention the need for a strategic corporal.

                    Soldiers being able to warfighting, peacekeeping & humanitarian assistance.

                    In the border context it means devolving responsibility down to the lowest levels.

                    Need for a declaratory policy at the border. Intrusions will be dealt with swiftly and decisively. Those guarding the border have to be in sync with policy of the highest mind in the country..
                    Last edited by Double Edge; 13 Aug 20,, 12:42.

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                    • Military option open if talks fail: CDS Rawat on China

                      Chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat on Monday stated that India has "military options" to deal with the Chinese on the issue of transgressions if talks between both the countries at the military and diplomatic level don't yield any results.

                      "The military option to deal with transgressions by the Chinese Army in Ladakh are on but it will be exercised only if talks at the military and the diplomatic level fail," Rawat said here on the ongoing dispute between India and China in Eastern Ladakh.

                      India and China are engaged in a standoff since April-May over the transgressions by the Chinese Army in multiple areas including Finger area, Galwan valley, Hot springs and Kongrung nala.

                      The talks between the two sides have been going on for the last three months including five Lieutenant General-level talks but have failed to yield any results, so far.

                      The CDS, however, refused to discuss in detail the military options that India could exercise to push back the transgressions by the Chinese Army in Ladakh sector.

                      The Chinese Army has refused to withdraw or disengage completely from the Finger area and seems to be buying time to delay its disengagement from there.

                      While efforts are underway to resolve the ongoing border dispute, India has rejected the Chinese suggestion to disengage equidistantly from the Finger area in Eastern Ladakh.
                      Economically, China has been sanctioned. What would military options be? Incursions in Ladakh to have repercussions in Tibet for the PLA? Isn't it a bit big talk, considering we haven't really talked about China in the same tone as we do for Pakistan. This isn't replying to GlobalTimes trolls, this comes from the CDS.
                      Last edited by Oracle; 25 Aug 20,, 00:49.
                      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                      • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                        My condolences and I pray a Divine Hand can guide and comfort you and your family through such grief.
                        Thank you, Colonel.

                        She was 90+, slight grief there. Only grief my dad/mom have. She was a good grandma, and everybody has to die one day. She messed up my routine of exercising and dieting. Ate a lot these days, and probably gained 3-4 kilos of unnecessary weight.
                        Last edited by Oracle; 25 Aug 20,, 00:49.
                        Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                        Comment


                        • Chinese Troops Must Go Back To Permanent Locations: India’s Precondition In Ladakh | SNG | Aug 28 2020

                          There's been some excitement over the southern shore of the Pangong Tzo recently. More details will become clear in the coming days.

                          For now India has thwarted any attempts to push the line further west.

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                          Last edited by Double Edge; 01 Sep 20,, 00:02.

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                          • Army thwarts PLA bid to seize heights near Pangong

                            Indian Army occupies strategic height near Pangong lake's southern bank: Sources

                            PLA attempts to occupy feature; Indian troops reinforce positions near Rezang La

                            India-China tension in eastern Ladakh: Civilian traffic, phone network suspended

                            A short war is likely to happen in the very near future. There is no doubt, these acts by the PLA have sanction from the top CPC leadership.
                            Last edited by Oracle; 01 Sep 20,, 05:02.
                            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                            Comment


                            • What does a short war achieve for the CCP ?

                              Not possible to make any strategic gains from a short war.

                              Strategic gains means say they capture Ladakh or decapitate J&K from India.

                              Not to mention the force ratios they would need for such an excercise.

                              At least 1:7 against a defender that is well seasoned at mountain warfare since the 80s.

                              Against a superior air force.

                              They would take heavy casualties.

                              Front lines from East China Sea to SCS down to Malacca and up to Ladakh are getting linked slowly but surely.

                              Americans aren't going to sit by idly. There's 3 B-2's at Diego Garcia.

                              They could be used in the SCS or even Ladakh. We're not going to prevent them flying over our territory.
                              Last edited by Double Edge; 01 Sep 20,, 10:01.

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                              • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                What does a short war achieve for the CCP ?

                                Not possible to make any strategic gains from a short war.

                                Strategic gains means say they capture Ladakh or decapitate J&K from India.

                                Not to mention the force ratios they would need for such an excercise.

                                At least 1:7 against a defender that is well seasoned at mountain warfare since the 80s.

                                Against a superior air force.

                                They would take heavy casualties.

                                Front lines from East China Sea to SCS down to Malacca and up to Ladakh are getting linked slowly but surely.
                                Scenario #1 - Teach India a lesson that PLA is still the superior force, and then withdraw due to international pressure.

                                Scenario #2 - What I actually dread is someone down the ranks saying enough, and pulls the trigger. It can be from the IA or the PLA.

                                In no scenario does CPC care about its troops. Whatever their casualties, CPC will keep it secret and information controlled.

                                Americans aren't going to sit by idly. There's 3 B-2's at Diego Garcia.

                                They could be used in the SCS or even Ladakh. We're not going to prevent them flying over our territory.
                                What will the Americans do uninvited? Even if invited, what options do the Americans have in the Himalayas? I think it is a bit naive to think of the Americans as Hyenas, joining the kill and bombing Chinese fortifications in the SCS or Ladakh. :D

                                What America can do, and is doing, is helping us with ELINT and mil capabilities right now. Other than that, the GoI doesn't think there's space for any more in this party.








                                What if the West do to the PRC, the same thing it did to ROC, in 1971? Anyone thought about this scenario? I will take a bet and wager the Colonel's guard dogs that the Americans have thought about it.
                                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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