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Thread: Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

  1. #1411
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Still does not change the fact that it was a freaking brawl with ZERO military significance.

    They don't want your rocks. They're testing your resolve and response. Hence, zero military excalation from their side.

    If you're not fighting to win, you're already defeated. But you misunderstood the reference. Using the past to predict your enemy is the quickest way to be surprised by your enemy.
    I think we've done what was necessary up to this point.

    If they're looking for resolve this govt has it in spades.

    Two instances. Country wide lock down for corona virus & notes ban back in 2016 that invalidated 86% over night, of the monetary value circulating in cash. It was done to invalidate fake currency suspected to have entered the country in amounts that would be used for terror.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 02 Aug 20, at 07:27.

  2. #1412
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    The US-India partnership, she said, “is about much more than economics and security. It’s also about the democratic traditions that have made both of our countries more prosperous and secure.” Ms. Curtis said there would be a deepening of the U.S.-India partnership based on a commitment both countries have to an open and transparent region in the Indo Pacific. “ You will see more of a focus on building up that relationship and also ensuring that the other nations of South and central Asia can maintain their own sovereignty and they have choices and alternatives to China.”
    She's talking about values.

    Brits & Americans reached this same conclusion in the 1870s

  3. #1413
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Are you going to lose men to keep those rocks or are you going to use those rocks to kill the enemy? I know which I would do. Because the Chinese just learned exactly how to do just that. An entire Indian coy rushed forward with zero back up and zero covering fire since obviously no one at Bde level knew what was going on.
    Yeah, it was a clear breach of trust. Conduct exercises then mobilise after.

    They unilaterally decided to throw out agreements we had going back over twenty years.

    If we do the same then we will end up losing more men and making your point more pertinent.

    Things cannot continue as is, we will have to come up with some new ways to deal with China.

    Broad spectrum.


    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    It was called the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, and the Fenian Raids. Canada and the US had went to war and up until WWI, we had plans to invade each other.
    When Justin was last over, your defense minister, the sardar, mentioned how Canada burnt the US Capitol down in 1812.

    In other words Canada attacked the US parliament !!!

    To a wide eyed Indian audience who could not digest such an action : D

    Because as Oracle said we imagine North America is that safe neighbourhood where no body attacks any one.

    That is from the 20th century onward. Things were different prior to that.

    US is lucky to have made it to the 20th C in one piece given the designs of the British, French & Spanish in centuries prior.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 02 Aug 20, at 10:03.

  4. #1414
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    If you're talking about the headline, then 'clickbait' headline attract local audience. Web portals have to generate revenue afterall.
    A curious article from David Devdas.

    Not come across any commentary from him on military aspects or standoffs past or present.

    Long time J&K watcher, he's mostly about J&K politics. He's written a couple of books about J&K. How the centre should win over the people of J&K.

    Suffice to say he found no traction with this govt for his ideas at all.

    Since J&K is his stomping ground he feels the need to comment.

    Remember this talk he gave at ORF and it was Sushant Sareen who introduced him, going by his opening remarks you could tell he did not agree with David's ideas at all.

    This means i was expecting David to be negative about the whole affair. Far from India teaching China a lesson more on the lines of how China caught us with our pants down sort of thing.

    One of the Chinese looked important. So, later that night, a spirited bunch of soldiers decided to grab him and carry him back.

    When the Chinese commander called up to ask worriedly about him, it turned out that he was the officer in charge of the PLA special forces in Galwan.

    Of course, capturing a special forces officer is a huge feather in any military cap. As one officer exulted: "The catch was definitely prized. Just think (it is like) we get the CO of the (US)Navy Seals."

    Two very different Indian officers have told me that that Chinese officer's capture decidedly turned the tide of the battle at Galwan. The Chinese morale nosedived.
    There was an exchange after the incident but this is the first i hear of their CO being captured.

    Later that night, a group of Gorkha soldiers joined battle along with a team of engineers who, I am told, wrought havoc of a different sort in the fourth phase of the battle at Galwan, completing the military objective of that night's operation.

    After the major setback with which the night began, it is truly commendable that the military objective was achieved amid the fog of war which, in every sense of that term, enveloped that night.

    I hope the officers who led the fight back are duly recognised on Republic Day if not on this Independence Day. The country must acknowledge how valiantly the army fought against great odds that night.

    The government, which initially focused on preventing escalation, must re-think how to treat the battle of Galwan in light of the clear evidence that has emerged in the last six weeks that China is in any case intent on escalating hostilities right across the two countries' boundaries.
    And what was the military objective for that night ? tit for tat ? more kung fu ? its not clear to me.

    It appears David is not at liberty to say.

    No mention about water being dammed up and then being released as the sat pics have proven.

    But he leaves us a clue.

    Now what would a team of engineers be useful for ? demolition isn't it.

    Of SOME THING which the govt will not admit : )

    Because this SOME THING was clearly inside Chinese territory. Maybe that is the reason.

    Next reason would be GOI did not want its hand to be forced by going public with this development.

    Deal with it without being pressured by the opposition to go to war over it. Note how the opposition also did not mention water but kept harping on about territory being nibbled.

    Wang Yi did mention we transgressed into their side.

    Jaishankar mentioned this 'structure' he had an issue with. Some people mentioned to me there might have been a landslide that occurred which blocked up the river. Meaning it was natural. I have my doubts about that because of the timing and the foreign minister would not mention the word structure in that case. So it was the Chinese who blocked the river as a pressure point.

    Even AIM's initial reporting was talking about the water in a round about way. His second article linked here from Jun 2 did not leave much of an impression with me. Circumspect. Vague. Only other reporter to talk about the water was Vishnu Som. Nothing from Nitin.

    If there is a lesson being taught here it is the Chinese cannot dam up water and expect us to be passive about it.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Aug 20, at 07:50.

  5. #1415
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    I mean the entire thing. A GREAT VICTORY? It was a FEAKING BRAWL. The only thing this article showed (if true) is that the Indians are better at HTH combat and maybe a shield wall since I've seen no shields on the Chinese side.

    I WOULD NOT USE THIS ENTIRE INCIDENT AS ANY INDICATION OF MILITARY PROWNESS BY EITHER SIDE.

    We have a saying in the Combat Engineers. If you're close enough for HTH, this means either the other side is too far up front and their artillery is about to fall or we're too far up front and our artillery is about to fall. In either case, RUN AWAY. I don't freaking care if your entire force comprised of ninja clad Bruce Lees. You're not going to Bruce Lee your way out of incoming fire.

    In a REAL MILITARY FIGHT, the Chinese would plummel you with artillery fire and any Indian soldier who could survive the over blast and shrapnel would still be in physical shock/disoriented. Before your soldiers could recover from the shock, the Chinese would be on you. For Pete sakes, the whole reason why we invented firearms is so we don't have to do HTH. If you're outnumbered, throw a grenade.

    A great military victory my ass. It was a brawl. FULL STOP!
    If my reading of this brawl is right, we fought our first water war with China and succeeded without firing a shot.

    Whether they repeat this stunt again remains to be seen but the reaction will be predictable.

    In the end, what do they have to show for their efforts to date ?

    It's funny, all the Indian commentators told me Pangong is where the business is at.

    Unless more details come out, we've not fought anyone in Pangong this time, we fought in Galwan.

    Galwan was it, in this round.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 02 Aug 20, at 12:57.

  6. #1416
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Here we go they are probing around in the central sector. Why would they be doing that ?

    Thought they already agreed with the Indian map in that sector to the consternation of the Nepalis

    China moves troops near Lipulekh Pass | HT | Aug 02 2020

    Updated: Aug 02, 2020 06:35 IST
    Shishir Gupta

    New Delhi China has mobilised a battalion strength of People’s Liberation Army (PLA) soldiers near Uttarakhand’s Lipulekh Pass, one of the locations along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) where movement of Chinese troops has been noticed over the last few weeks outside of the Ladakh sector, people familiar with the matter told Hindustan Times.

    India and China have been engaged in a standoff in Eastern Ladakh beginning in early May that flared up on June 15 into the bloodiest clash between soldiers of the two countries in 45 years. Twenty Indian soldiers and an unspecified number of PLA men died in the clash.

    Three weeks later, both sides agreed to start disengagement and de-escalation of troops at the standoff points after a conversation between National Security Adviser Ajit Doval and Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi.

    There has been thinning of troops at the standoff points, but the disengagement is still a work in progress.

    Simultaneously, Indian military officers in Ladakh noticed a huge effort by Chinese troops to bolster their strength in their “depth areas,” and give infrastructure projects on its side a hard push. Chinese troops have augmented their presence on its side of the LAC elsewhere too.

    “There has been accretion of PLA troops across the LAC at Lipulekh Pass, parts of North Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh,” a top military commander said, requesting anonymity.

    Lipulekh Pass, which falls on the Mansarovar Yatra route, has been in the headlines over the last few months after Nepal objected to an 80-km road built by India to the Himalayan pass. The Lipulekh Pass is also used for annual barter trade during June-October between tribal populations living on either side of the Indo-China LAC.

    Kathmandu escalated tensions with India this year after it changed its political map to count the Kalapani area including Lipulekh - which lies close to the tri-junction of India-China-Nepal - as its own.

    At Lipulekh Pass, PLA has moved a battalion - approximately 1,000 soldiers - at some distance from the border.

    “It is a signal that the Chinese troops are prepared,” a second army officer said. He added that India had matched the strength of the PLA troops and was keeping a close watch on Nepal in context of its recent border claims.

    “The situation on the Line of Actual Control remains dynamic with the PLA trying to emphasise its presence beyond Ladakh by building infrastructure on their side of the LAC,” the top military commander quoted above said.

    In Ladakh and elsewhere, the troop movements and mistrust has led the army to prepare to station soldiers in the icy heights of Ladakh through the winter irrespective of how the disengagement and de-escalation efforts pan out.

    The government has already sounded out its embassies in the US, Russia and Europe to locate manufacturers of high-altitude clothing and snow tent manufacturers for emergency purchases. If the supply still falls short, Plan B is to divert stocks from locations such as Thoise, the base station for soldiers deployed in the Siachen Glacier.

    “It looks unlikely that we would be able to take our eyes off the border,” said the army officer, underscoring that this could be the only way for now to make Indian territory off-limits for an expansionist China and hold peace on the border.

    “After the PLA aggression, we don’t trust the Chinese and fear that they will come back again north of Pangong Tso as summer arrives in 2021,” said the military commander.

    Although the PLA has disengaged from patrolling points 14 (Galwan), 15-16 (Hot Springs), a smattering of adversary troops are still on forward location at patrolling point 17 A (Gogra) and withdrawal from all contested finger features is a distance away at Pangong Tso.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Aug 20, at 21:30.

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