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Thread: Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

  1. #1306
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Nitin's update on the state of roads in Arunachal

    The black and orange side roads have come up since 2008. Prior to that they were not blacktopped so got muddy in the rain.

    The Dalai Lama entered India in 1959 and took the Tawang - Bhalokpung route to arrive in Tezpur.

    Nitin thinks that route should be called the Dalai Lama Highway : )

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    It's as a result of these roads China makes its latest claim to an area in Bhutan near the Sakteng sanctuary

    The joke is the area isn't even contiguous with the present Chinese border but is rather further south and borders Arunachal.

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    So India is propsing to build a road through this area China claims that will link Gauhati with Tawang by going through Bhutan via Trashigang

    India wants to build a road through Bhutan's 'Yeti Territory' to counter China's expansionist moves | DH | Jul 08 2020

    Thing is we've wanted to do this for the last ten years but have not got the green light from Bhutan as yet, going by the ten yr old HT article below

    Road through yeti territory excites locals | HT | Nov 29 2010
    Last edited by Double Edge; Yesterday at 09:52.

  2. #1307
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Long series of tweets featuring newspaper clippings building up to the '62 war.

    Galwan, Pangong, Ladakh, its as if the Chinese have choreographed these to scare us.

  3. #1308
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    And India is the worlds' largest democracy? Fook India.
    An online petition addressed to Prime Minister Narendra Modi has been launched for the renaming of Panchsheel Marg outside the Chinese Embassy in New Delhi’s Chanakyapuri “as the Dalai Lama Marg.”

    The petition has been initiated by a senior bureaucrat, O.P. Mishra in his personal capacity as a citizen, as per information on Facebook; he is currently posted in the Union Territory of Lakshadweep as Secretary.

    The Chinese Embassy has three roads around it, Shanti Path, Panchsheel Marg and Nayaya Marg. Mishra’s petition says that “Panchsheel” was the treaty between India and China in 1954. The then Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru advocated this treaty.

    “We named one of the most important roads in Chanakyapuri to mark the importance of the treaty as Panchsheel Marg.

    Panchsheel means the five principles which formed the basis of Indo-Sino relationship—mutual respect for each other’s territorial integrity and sovereignty, mutual non-aggression, mutual non-interference in each other’s internal affairs, equality and mutual benefit, and peaceful co-existence.

    Sadly, this treaty survived only on paper.”

    There are some who feel that it would be better to rename Shanti Path as Dalai Lama Marg.

    That way, the Chinese embassy’s address will be “50-D, Dalai Lama Path, Chanakyapuri, New Delhi 110021”.

    Whenever the Chinese will have to give directions, they will have to say “We are on the Dalai Lama Path”!
    High time this was done

    https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/n...a-path-chinese
    Last edited by Double Edge; Yesterday at 18:25.

  4. #1309
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    Vis-a-vi 1979-1989 Sino-VN Combat.

    There are things that needed to be understood that are not explained by those articles and frankly, ignorant of a whole sleuth of things. Sino-VN was an existential crisis for both countries. While VN performed militarily extremely well, it should be noted that they failed to stop the PLA and frankly, had Deng decided (and he clearly had the balls to do it), he could have taken Hanoi. China, however, woke up that they were in no shape to stop the Soviets. What's more, they were surrounded. India, Vietnam, and the USSR. Whatever illusion they were spouting about the Paper Polar Bell was dispelled when the 40th Army crossed into Afghanistan ... in winter ... over mountains ... with armour. (a military feat that has yet to be duplicated even today by the US).

    There was only one strategic objective in the 1979 War and that was to force VN to withdraw from Cambodia. The hope was that Chinese military pressure on the border would relieve Vietnamese military pressure in Cambodia. That did not occurred. The Chinese did not get what they wanted. However, they got what they needed. They destroyed the military threat in the South. VN was in no position to march north had the Soviet Armies marched south. The 1985 2nd Sino-VN War was a much reduced action but showed just how far the Chinese had advanced and how far VN had fallened. The battle was a for a few hills. The Chinese committed a division and held the hills for 2 months before VN could respond and they responded with a single regt. That regt was destroyed in artillery barrage.

    The economic toll on VN cannot be understated. They were relying on Soviet aide more and more. The Soviets were unwilling to pay VN to properly face the Chinese while the Chinese were getting good with their funds (cut 2 million men from the Army and use those funds for training and equipment). By 1989, VN was broke. They had no choice but to leave Cambodia and sue for peace with China.

    Trying to play the enemy's chess game while you're newbie while they're the chess master is a setup for failure.

  5. #1310
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Vis-a-vi 1979-1989 Sino-VN Combat.

    There are things that needed to be understood that are not explained by those articles and frankly, ignorant of a whole sleuth of things. Sino-VN was an existential crisis for both countries. While VN performed militarily extremely well, it should be noted that they failed to stop the PLA and frankly, had Deng decided (and he clearly had the balls to do it), he could have taken Hanoi. China, however, woke up that they were in no shape to stop the Soviets. What's more, they were surrounded. India, Vietnam, and the USSR. Whatever illusion they were spouting about the Paper Polar Bell was dispelled when the 40th Army crossed into Afghanistan ... in winter ... over mountains ... with armour. (a military feat that has yet to be duplicated even today by the US).

    There was only one strategic objective in the 1979 War and that was to force VN to withdraw from Cambodia. The hope was that Chinese military pressure on the border would relieve Vietnamese military pressure in Cambodia. That did not occurred. The Chinese did not get what they wanted. However, they got what they needed. They destroyed the military threat in the South. VN was in no position to march north had the Soviet Armies marched south. The 1985 2nd Sino-VN War was a much reduced action but showed just how far the Chinese had advanced and how far VN had fallened. The battle was a for a few hills. The Chinese committed a division and held the hills for 2 months before VN could respond and they responded with a single regt. That regt was destroyed in artillery barrage.

    The economic toll on VN cannot be understated. They were relying on Soviet aide more and more. The Soviets were unwilling to pay VN to properly face the Chinese while the Chinese were getting good with their funds (cut 2 million men from the Army and use those funds for training and equipment). By 1989, VN was broke. They had no choice but to leave Cambodia and sue for peace with China.

    Trying to play the enemy's chess game while you're newbie while they're the chess master is a setup for failure.
    Thanks, Will reply after i taught myself some contemporary Vietnamese history : )

  6. #1311
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    A reaction to a recent interview given by Shukla to Karan Thapar with The Wire

    Interviewer is Shiv Kunal Verma and the interviewee is Gen VK Singh

    General VK Singh, former Chief of the Army Staff who is now presently the Minister of State for Road Transport & Highways talks to Shiv Kunal Verma, the author of 1962: The War That Wasn't with reference to the interview conducted by journalist Karan Thapar (son of General Pran Thapar, who was the Army Chief in '62) and Ajai Shukla, a former Army officer turned journalist with close political connections.


    SKV: Have you seen the interview? It's sweeping through Social Media and along with comments from another former Army officer, Pravin Sawhney, it's painting a grim picture.

    VKS: I've seen the transcripts and am aware of what these two and some others are saying. Frankly, I am absolutely shocked at the devious manner in which information is being put out by them. Neither Shukla nor Sawhney have a clue about the ground situation. They left the army decades ago… Sawhney from the Raj Bhavan in Punjab and Shukla from Nagrota to build on his family connections with the Gandhis. They are using the credibility their rank gives them to not only peddle lies, they are playing a very dangerous game where they want to create a fear syndrome in a bid to promote themselves.



    SKV: By using and interpreting satellite images, the arguments being put forward are that we have lost a considerable amount of territory.

    VKS: As I said its being very cleverly done. If you remember one of the first images put out by Shukla showed the Chinese sitting literally on the Galwan-Shyok junction, controlling the heights on the northern side of the Galwan Valley. Having got everyone's attention, including a former Northern Army Commander long since retired, that annotated image quietly disappeared and new ones appeared showing the area of conflict around PP 14. This was a quantum shift backwards by nearly 8 to 10 km. By using satellite images and projecting their make belief fantasies based on their perception of the LAC, what they are trying to do is obvious to any trained eye.



    SKV: I think you need to elaborate on this. Most people had no idea where the Galwan Valley was...

    VKS: That there is a real threat from the Chinese build up there can be no doubt. They have been doing this for years, probing, looking for perceived weaknesses. That Communist China's core ideology is expansionist there is no doubt. We are dealing with a powerful adversary here and frankly the Chinese are playing a game of chess. We have certain short comings but we are not push overs by any stretch of imagination. Even in 1962 as you correctly point out in your book, we lost not to the Chinese but to ourselves.

    As for the Galwan Valley the Chinese have since 1962 controlled the major part of the Valley. The area under us, where we perceive the LAC to be, gives us control of the final few kilometres. There is a major camp where PLA troops have concentrated some 10 km behind the LAC on their side and they have made another camp ahead of that. We are not fools... disengagement is to calm things down and we know where our immediate strategic and tactical goals are. No reason for us to compromise on that. Shukla says no one has the guts to put his name on the new alignment... well, he can take it from me PP 14 is under our control and the Chinese do not have any direct observation of the Shyok Valley or the road. If that doesn't satisfy him and his handlers, I do not know what will.



    SKV: What about the other sectors? Pangong Tso, Hot Springs, the Depsang Valley... DBO… all throw backs to 1962

    VKS: As you and I both know, the Chinese have been playing this game relentlessly. Doklam as you pointed out in the Sunday Guardian yesterday was also a classic case of the Army stepping in and blocking the Chinese as they tried to push the road further towards the tri-junction. The Eastern Army Commander at that time acted decisively and that was the end of that. This same lot created a huge hue and cry saying the Chinese had since done this and that and in the long run this and that had happened. It's laughable, but if the Chinese have built a few structures there, good for us. It gives us clear targets for we are sitting on the heights.

    The Chinese have pushed into what at best can be called the grey areas between their perception of the LAC and ours. We have already called their bluff and now negotiations will carry on to push them back. The Sumdrong or as the Chinese call it, the Sangduoluo, talks went on for seven years, but we stood our ground and got what we wanted. Give it time... I also do not want to get into specifics. This is not a cricket match where a ball by ball commentary has to be given.



    SKV: Shukla in particular was involved in the Siachen sell out earlier. We were all quite appalled he along with the others were not arrested for what clearly amounted to treason. You had put in a formal complaint to the MHA at the time.

    VKS: Not just MHA, but to the Press Council and to the Delhi Police as well. Mr Sushilkumar Shinde was then the Home Minister... how could he act against some of their own? Shekhar Gupta was also one of the characters who had a price tag attached to his pen... 'journalism of courage' I think he called it. He was sitting on the Press Council, maybe even heading it. Look what these people did to the TSD (Technical Support Division) among other things...

    Look treason is treason... I think these cases should be looked at even now. Quite frankly the Siachen sell-out by itself is something that needs to be enquired into. From what I remember once they were exposed the facts were quite cut and dry. You give them a free rope this rubbish will carry on ad nauseam. It’s pretty obvious some one sitting somewhere is coordinating this entire exercise.



    SKV: Why not give a regular update officially. I suggested that yesterday in my article in the Sunday Guardian.

    VKS: Well, as a one-time thing since these chaps are hell bent on spreading panic, maybe. Briefings have a time and place and not because some ignoramuses are clamouring for it on behalf of their handlers. But I don't see the Chinese telling us through any self-styled experts what their game plan is. The people in question here are all intelligent characters and they are doing what they are doing with their eyes wide open.

    The language and terms being used by Ajai Shukla is mirroring Chinese perceptions.

    The trouble is these guys are also hiding under the freedom accorded to the press under our constitution. As far as I am concerned, they are traitors... and I don't use that word off the cuff or lightly! We can all see the frustration building up among certain political circles. These are tough times but the self-styled leaders of the opposition and the Chinese together need to create as many cracks to make the government of the day look vulnerable... in the case of the former they must remember the saying... don't cut the nose to spite the face!
    TSD was a secretive military intelligence unit, set up in 2010 under former army chief General VK Singh, and disbanded after he retired in 2012.
    Last edited by Double Edge; Today at 11:07.

  7. #1312
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Vis-a-vi 1979-1989 Sino-VN Combat.

    There are things that needed to be understood that are not explained by those articles and frankly, ignorant of a whole sleuth of things. Sino-VN was an existential crisis for both countries. While VN performed militarily extremely well, it should be noted that they failed to stop the PLA and frankly, had Deng decided (and he clearly had the balls to do it), he could have taken Hanoi. China, however, woke up that they were in no shape to stop the Soviets. What's more, they were surrounded. India, Vietnam, and the USSR. Whatever illusion they were spouting about the Paper Polar Bell was dispelled when the 40th Army crossed into Afghanistan ... in winter ... over mountains ... with armour. (a military feat that has yet to be duplicated even today by the US).

    There was only one strategic objective in the 1979 War and that was to force VN to withdraw from Cambodia. The hope was that Chinese military pressure on the border would relieve Vietnamese military pressure in Cambodia. That did not occurred. The Chinese did not get what they wanted. However, they got what they needed. They destroyed the military threat in the South. VN was in no position to march north had the Soviet Armies marched south. The 1985 2nd Sino-VN War was a much reduced action but showed just how far the Chinese had advanced and how far VN had fallened. The battle was a for a few hills. The Chinese committed a division and held the hills for 2 months before VN could respond and they responded with a single regt. That regt was destroyed in artillery barrage.

    The economic toll on VN cannot be understated. They were relying on Soviet aide more and more. The Soviets were unwilling to pay VN to properly face the Chinese while the Chinese were getting good with their funds (cut 2 million men from the Army and use those funds for training and equipment). By 1989, VN was broke. They had no choice but to leave Cambodia and sue for peace with China.

    Trying to play the enemy's chess game while you're newbie while they're the chess master is a setup for failure.
    In passing, how's PLA's office corp now? Last time it was mentioned, it was said that they needed 20 years to catch up to the West. Are they now at the Soviet levels at least?

  8. #1313
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    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    In passing, how's PLA's office corp now? Last time it was mentioned, it was said that they needed 20 years to catch up to the West. Are they now at the Soviet levels at least?
    Book smart but not street smart. The Russians called them Iron Disciplined in that they would never waivered from their plans no matter the hardship. Also can't stop, never mind revising, once that plan goes to shit. The Chinese could never do a Georgia with half their reccee officers on leave as the Russians had.

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