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Thread: Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

  1. #1156
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Can protest outside the Chinese consulate in Toronto.

    Can't do it in India !!
    And India is the worlds' largest democracy? Fook India.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

  2. #1157
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    What I'm trying to say is I don't see the QUAD as being useful. QUAD is a bogeyman to keep the Chinese awake at night.
    Quad represents 4 indo pacific democracies that China has no veto over. These four represent a rules based order.

    These four are going to shape China's behaviour as China wants to rewrite rules and thinks it can arbitrarily comply with existing ones.

    They've started this quad plus thing of late to include NZ, Korea & Vietnam on specific issues.

    What sunk the quad the first time was Rudd unilaterally announcing in Beijing that Australia would quit the grouping, some time in 2008. We were livid about this because there was no advance warning.

    What revived quad was our single handed opposition to BRI as well as Doklam. This then catalysed the LEMOA agreement.

    What John Lee said about ASEAN applies here, countries keeping quiet and not speaking out gives China diplomatic cover to continue wily nilly as is. China has a veto over what these smaller countries can say or even do. Who the hell are they to dictate what arms these countries can buy or who they partner with for minerals exploitation in the SCS.

    More countries coming together on the basis of interests and making a stand raises the cost for China. As it is we see how sensitive they are when countries speak up.

    People say China does not care what countries say then why was Australia sanctioned. China does care what countries say and the more that speak up the better for all of us.

    Now whether the grouping called quad acts as a catalyst for this or something else is immaterial, whatever grouping that comes up is better than nothing. Where China can individually pick on countries and deter them from saying any thing.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 05 Jul 20, at 00:33.

  3. #1158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    These four are going to shape China's behaviour as China wants to rewrite rules and thinks it can arbitrarily comply with existing ones.
    No, they're not. The ONLY one to shape China's behaviour is the USN.

  4. #1159
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Did a search for 40% increase in Aus defense budget and found loads of links, lol

    Australia boosts defence spending by 40 per cent as China tensions rise | SCMP | Jul 1 2020

    In a major speech in Canberra, Morrison said the government would spend A$270 billion (US$186 billion) on defence over the next decade, up nearly 40 per cent from the A$195 billion pledged under its previous strategic review in 2016.
    That's the basis for the figure. Commentators that mentioned it were correct.

  5. #1160
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    No, they're not. The ONLY one to shape China's behaviour is the USN.
    There's a lot of space between saying nothing and USN

    Getting countries on the same page and willing to actually say something is a precursor to doing something.

    Otherwise its like saying its pointless just let USN deal with it.

    What happens in that case. China works these countries and turns them against the US.

    Keep them divided and Beijing facing.

    What's your USN going to do then when its not welcome at these countries ports.

    So its about delaying countries bandwagoning onto China if not entirely preventing it.

    Keep them hedging which these smaller countries prefer to do anyway. They hate to take sides.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 04 Jul 20, at 19:37.

  6. #1161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    There's a lot of space between saying nothing and USN

    Getting countries on the same page and willing to actually say something is a precursor to doing something.
    Yes, getting to do what the USN wants them to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Otherwise its like saying its pointless just let USN deal with it.
    It is also pointless without the USN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    What happens in that case. China works these countries and turns them against the US.

    Keep them divided and Beijing facing.

    What's your USN going to do then when its not welcome at these countries ports.
    Ask New Zealand and the Phillipines that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    So its about delaying countries bandwagoning onto China if not entirely preventing it.

    Keep them hedging which these smaller countries prefer to do anyway. They hate to take sides.
    Still all comes back down to the USN.

  7. #1162
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    There's a lot of space between saying nothing and USN

    Getting countries on the same page and willing to actually say something is a precursor to doing something.

    Otherwise its like saying its pointless just let USN deal with it.

    What happens in that case. China works these countries and turns them against the US.

    Keep them divided and Beijing facing.

    What's your USN going to do then when its not welcome at these countries ports.

    So its about delaying countries bandwagoning onto China if not entirely preventing it.

    Keep them hedging which these smaller countries prefer to do anyway. They hate to take sides.
    I don't see Vietnam cozying up to China anytime soon if at all.

    OZ and NZ not either.

    Philippines? Well Duerte is out June 30, 2022 and with him his very unpredictable nature. With it looking very strongly that Austral/Cerebus will take over the Subic shipyard to build for the Philippine Navy and maintain for them and the US Navy. Then I'd have to say the Philippines would be leaning away.

  8. #1163
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    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

  9. #1164
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    That's a large crowd? Looks like at most 30 people.

  10. #1165
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    No, they're not. The ONLY one to shape China's behaviour is the USN.
    Let's give this a little test drive shall we.

    India's signed LEMOA recently so how about some USN show up at Indian ports to restock.

    What effect it will have on the present crisis with China : )

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. In fact, the Chinese would be stupid not to use Pakistan and the Pakistani Army. Even the US uses NATO whenever possible.
    I don't expect the PA to jump in but the PLA AF could make use of their air bases.

    That would make them targets for us though. Would the Paks accept this.

    PA massing troops on their side just PR for their people that India won't take back PO J&K.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 05 Jul 20, at 02:31.

  11. #1166
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    That's a large crowd? Looks like at most 30 people.
    Name and shame. Loss of face is what China cares deeply. It doesn't matter if the crowd consists of 3 people, China will not get a face saver this time, just like Doklam.

    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

  12. #1167
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    He pointed out that the international community can hit China on three fronts -- trade, Tibet and Taiwan. The world should boycott Chinese products, support independence of Tibet and support Taiwan.

    "The three Ts can be successfully handled by a global coalition led by three world leaders Prime Minister Modi, US President Donald Trump and Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe," he said.
    The 3 T's

    Good initiative, could get bigger with time.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    That's a large crowd? Looks like at most 30 people.
    Maybe covid restrictions on crowd size in NYC. As well as fear of getting into groups.

    Not finding much in terms of numbers in the CDC's guidelines though or the city's guidelines..

    There's a lot there that would resonate with Americans.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 05 Jul 20, at 02:09.

  13. #1168
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    The problem is what is your doctrine? What do you want to do? Fighter sweeps? SEAD? The Russians wanted to do fighter sweeps, to at least make NATO airpower too busy to bother with the ground war. You can't exactly bomb a tank column if you're evading a Russian missile. We wanted to do SEAD so that we could bomb the shit out of tank columns. Our doctrines reflect that.

    We need an AWACS in the sky to give us a battle picture. The Russians know their battle picture before they leave their base - to kill that AWACS.

    The Chinese? As far as I can tell, they want to use their birds as missile magnets and let the ground base AD net do the real heavy lifting.
    I'm trying to find an updated IAF Doctrine. Nothing open-source. I got an old one from 2012, which I'm not interested in going through as it's old. I am marking this post to answer sometime in the future, if I find an updated doctrine.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

  14. #1169
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    This link is suspect, but it has 2 interesting tweets. Check them out.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

  15. #1170
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    This link is suspect, but it has 2 interesting tweets. Check them out.
    Palki's already spoken about Valdivostok

    Would Winnie the pooh and katora khan even to go their own toilets without security ?
    Last edited by Double Edge; 05 Jul 20, at 02:46.

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