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Thread: Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

  1. #1081
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Nitin earlier made a video of the Chinese 'Creeping Forward Tactic'

    During the 50s the Chinese built that road to connect Xianjiang to Tibet. I recall a TIME magazine article from 1953 wondering why Nehru wasn't doing anything.

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    As the 50s wore on they slowly started grabbing territory and the yellow line is how things stood by Nov 1959

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    They kept going further west and by Sept 1962 the red line is where they reached

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    During this period we still had ITBP patrols reaching out to posts marked in green but you can see the shaded area they grabbed between '59 & '62. They stop our patrols from completing their task

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    From Sept to Oct '62 they push up to the green line. That's when the war begins.

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    Last edited by Double Edge; 30 Jun 20, at 21:02.

  2. #1082
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    After the war ends they withdraw from the purple areas back to the red line in a show of magnanimity.

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    This is where the two steps forward, one step back comes from.

    Nitin thinks they now want to reclaim those purple areas. Have to assume Arunachal is on the list too.

    Looking at that green line and Galwan i'd say the present LAC or where Google marks it out to be is where the Chinese pushed to in 1962 anyway.

    If they withdrew back to the red line then India would have a larger portion of the Galwan valley than at present.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 30 Jun 20, at 20:54.

  3. #1083
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Very good.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

  4. #1084
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

  5. #1085
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    U.S. Intel: China Ordered Attack on Indian Troops in Galwan River Valley

    A SENIOR CHINESE general authorized his forces to attack Indian troops in the Galwan River valley last week, resulting in a brutal skirmish that killed dozens and dramatically escalated tensions between the two Asian powerhouses, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.

    Gen. Zhao Zongqi, head of the Western Theater Command and among the few combat veterans still serving in the People's Liberation Army, approved the operation along the contested border region of northern India and southwestern China, a source familiar with the assessment says on the condition of anonymity. Zhao, who has overseen prior standoffs with India, has previously expressed concerns that China must not appear weak to avoid exploitation by the United States and its allies, including in New Delhi, the source says, and saw the faceoff last week as a way to "teach India a lesson."

    The assessment contradicts China's subsequent assertions about what happened last week. And it indicates the deadly and contentious incident – in which at least 20 Indian and 35 Chinese troops died, and reportedly a handful on each side were captured and subsequently released – was not the result of a tense circumstance that spiraled out of control, as has happened before, but rather a purposeful decision by Beijing to send a message of strength to India.

    Yet that plan appears to have backfired, as the incident sparked widespread outrage in India that continues a week later. And Beijing's attempts to make India more amenable to future negotiations, including about contested territory, instead appear to have pushed the economic giant closer to the U.S.

    Much is at stake, far beyond territorial control. The U.S. has pressured India for months to back away from employing Chinese tech company Huawei to help build its 5G infrastructure. In the aftermath of last week's incident, Indians were reportedly deleting Chinese social media app TikTok and destroying phones made in China.

    "It does the very opposite of what China wanted," the source says. "This is not a victory for China's military."

    Officials from India and China were scheduled to meet on Monday to discuss the fallout from the incident. It remains unclear the extent to which Chinese President Xi Jinping was involved in the decisions that led to last week's bloody encounter, though analysts familiar with Chinese military decisionmaking say he would have almost certainly known about the orders.

    Troops had massed on both sides of the border in recent months in the northern India region of Ladakh and the southwestern Chinese region of Aksai Chin, causing global concerns of a potential escalation between the two. Private geo-intelligence firm Hawkeye 360 reported last week that satellite imagery from late May showed a buildup on the Chinese side of what appeared to be armed personnel carriers and self-propelled artillery.

    Senior leaders from India and China agreed earlier in June to disarmament and a mutual withdrawal from the region, though both sides have accused the other of continuing to ship in and set up equipment required for a sustained military campaign. China has also accused India of building infrastructure such as roads in contested areas Beijing claims as its own.

    On June 15, a senior Indian officer and two non-commissioned officers traveled unarmed to a meeting place where they expected to be met by a comparable delegation of Chinese troops to discuss the withdrawal, according to the source familiar with the U.S. assessment of the incident. Instead, dozens of Chinese troops were waiting with spiked bats and clubs and began an attack. Other Indian troops came in to support, leading to a melee that caused more casualties from the improvised weapons, rocks and falls from the steep terrain.

    Border guards from both countries have clashed before. The Hong Kong Free Press in 2017 posted video it confirmed as genuine of a similar brawl in a separate part of the contested border.

    Chinese officials released few details immediately of Monday's clash. Its state news services first criticized India for the attack and later adopted a more amenable approach.

    That changed late last week, following persistent outrage from Indian officials and protests among its population. Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian in a press conference Friday said blame lay solely with India for a series of what he considered provocative incursions into Chinese territory. He also said Indian leaders had pledged not to cross certain areas of the Galwan River, known as the Line of Actual Control, to build new facilities.

    "Shockingly, on the evening of June 15, India's front-line troops, in violation of the agreement reached at the commander-level meeting, once again crossed the Line of Actual Control for deliberate provocation when the situation in the Galwan Valley was already easing, and even violently attacked the Chinese officers and soldiers who went there for negotiation, thus triggering fierce physical conflicts and causing casualties," Zhao Lijian said. "The adventurous acts of the Indian army have seriously undermined the stability of the border areas, threatened the lives of Chinese personnel, violated the agreements reached between the two countries on the border issue, and breached the basic norms governing international relations. China has lodged solemn representations and strong protests to the Indian side."

    He added that China hopes India will continue to cooperate to reach new agreements and continue communication and coordination.

    Analysts say it's clear the incident did not pan out as China intended, not in the least because its state media outlets have all but erased the incident from their pages in the week since it took place. The U.S. believes Zhao, the Chinese general who commanded the forces involved, held a memorial service for the PLA soldiers who died in the incident – an occasion that would normally attract some form of state-sponsored publicity. Instead, Chinese censors have since cracked down on social media posts about the incident, including ones that mention "defeat" and "humiliation" when describing the dead or injured Chinese troops.

    Zhao, who fought with the PLA during its brief but devastating war with Vietnam in 1979, believes Chinese generals mismanaged that conflict, according to the U.S. assessment. He was also involved in the Doklam standoff in 2017 along a different part of the China-India border, which ended when Indian troops forcibly pushed back Chinese forces before both countries agreed to a mutual withdrawal.

    The U.S. has remained largely quiet about the latest incident – likely reflecting a belief within the Trump administration that India and its vast economic resources are already increasingly turning to the U.S. for support.

    Secretary of State Mike Pompeo issued a statement late Thursday night – early Friday morning in New Delhi – posting on Twitter, "We extend our deepest condolences to the people of India for the lives lost as a result of the recent confrontation with China. We will remember the soldiers' families, loved ones, and communities as they grieve."

    Reporters asked President Donald Trump about the incident shortly before he left Washington, D.C., Saturday afternoon for a rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

    "It's a very tough situation. We're talking to India. We're talking to China. They've got a big problem there," he said. "They've come to blows, and we'll see what happens. We'll try and help them out."
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

  6. #1086
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    The communists are sterilising ethnic Uighur women.
    Never take things at face value. I immeidately google sterilizing Uyghur and came up with the AP report. No one is neutering Uyghur women. They planted IUDs and feel oral birth control pills (oral sterilization is a myth). Of course that doesn't change the anti-CCP/Pro-Uyghur Indpendence narrative.

  7. #1087
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    I have restricted my salt intake, and the Doc advised me to lose weight. I talked with a couple of gym owners, and then the Corona pandemic started. Everything closed. I am now thinking of buying some steel weights for home exercise, but no one's delivering. Also thinking of buying 2 double-coat German Shepherds. They are big dogs. They need exercise, so do I. My mom is against it, only I need to make up my mind. Had a male GSD before, so no issues having 2 GSD again. One thing I've noticed over the years is that, once I decide to do something, there comes numerous barriers from somewhere. God ain't happy with me, if there is one.
    Check out something called the 7 minute workout. It's a High Intensity Interval Training requiring just a chair. It will get you started without weights. I had to modify it since my knees are gone and can't do impacts anymore,

    I've since moved onto https://darebee.com/ for variety. Getting bored with your workouts is one way to kill your gains.

  8. #1088
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    The communists are sterilising ethnic Uighur women. Does that fit your description of the Nazis, or here too you'll argue about past semantics.
    Not semantics at all. I'm very sympathetic to Uighur goals. But sterilization is a fairly standard Chinese government policy with regard to women who exceed the government's mandatory limit on childbirth. I disagree with those policies, but they are policies for everyone in the country.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-ch..._sterilization

    Ethnic minorities also get a higher limit:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy#History

    It's hard to blame the Uighurs for telling white lies about a government that is in fact carrying out fairly draconian policies against them. But with regard to population control, those policies aren't just draconian vis-a-vis Uighurs. They are more draconian as applied to the "Han" majority, which is just a description for the people within the empire who have assimilated into the majority and dropped their old tribal identities, i.e. become cooked barbarians. The Roman equivalent would be the additions to the empire that had assimilated enough to become Roman citizens. At least on a surface level, one example of a cooked barbarian would be an actress who seems to have become quite popular:

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    Last edited by Mithridates; 30 Jun 20, at 09:11.

  9. #1089
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    I am officially a dirty old man.

  10. #1090
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    What does the word 'revenge' mean in this video. Revenge for what ?

    They way they got shown up at Doklam ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post


    Very good.
    Bad news for Indian content creators on that platform. Imagine working to get followers, getting millions of them and having it yanked from under your feet one fine day.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 30 Jun 20, at 16:52.

  11. #1091
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    If the Galwan satellite pics are any example to go by, this will be a foot infantry fight. Line-of-sight is extremely limited, limiting the use of heavy artillery and restricting to light guns (mortars and 105s). Further more, I'm not impressed Chinese built up area so called machine gun nests. No fall back positions and absolutely zero cover. The Galwan pics showed me no avenue of advance that can be utilized by trucks, let alone armoured vehicles and that's on the Chinese side. With over a year since the last Sino-Indo stand-off, they've done zero work to help advance to the LAC. As a comparison, the Soviets built roads through Afghan mountains to support their armoured invasion of Afghanistan - IN WINTER!
    Shouldn't employment of artillery be possible using high angle shots? Assuming of course you have accurate intelligence about precise enemy location. That shouldn't be a problem with the widespread proliferation of drones and real-time satellite imaging. Also, if the Chinese can break through to the Indian side of the LAC towards Daulat Beg Oldi, you will find decent tank country over there.

    Like I said, the IA takes that threat seriously:

    India deploys T-90 tanks in Galwan Valley after China’s aggressive posturing at LAC

    Infantry combat vehicles along with 155mm howitzers have been deployed all along 1597 km long LAC in East Ladakh with two tank regiments deployed in Chushul sector to repel any aggressive plans of the adversary through the Spanggur Gap. While Chinese PLA wants to make a deal on the LAC in this sector as part of withdrawal, the Indian Army is no mood to give an inch as the military aggression came from the Western Theatre Command of China with the intention of redefining the LAC.
    The numbers are small, but if I remember correctly there is already a contingent of T-72's deployed nearby long ago.

    The Chinese road building may not be as brazen as the Soviets in AFG but it happens slowly and surely unless challenged.

  12. #1092
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    A whole bunch of hogwash. QUAD ain't the alliance to scare China. You want to scare China? A Taiwan-Japan-South Korea Alliance is the one to do it, not this.

    Indian pundits could put whatever spin you want. QUAD ain't scaring China. Not a single one of those countries will ever initiate military action if any of the other is in trouble.
    The actions of Jun 15 will be seen by all countries that border China. It could happen to them too if they resist.

    Japan, Increasingly India, Australia are in a balancing role. The US is in a countering role.

    The remaining countries on China's border are in a hedging role. China tells every one to sit on the side lines and see how things turn out.

    Taiwan & South Korea are halfway between hedging & balancing. Would need something more to tip them into the balancing list.

    If Quad does not matter to China why does it not like it when the four get together. They're paranoid.

    One limitation to India is quad being maritime does not offer any help for a border dispute in the Himalayas.

    Maybe it should be extended to include the littoral as well which would then cover land borders too.

    The support here could be covert and Establshment 22 is an example of such Indo US cooperation in Tibet.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 30 Jun 20, at 21:23.

  13. #1093
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    Shouldn't employment of artillery be possible using high angle shots?
    You mean reverse slope? The problem with reverse slope is how high is the slope. Too high and the targets are under the guns' ballastic arcs. Galwan pics just doesn't give me any place where heavy guns could be of use. 105s is probably the heaviest you can get there.

    China got a long way to go before I could envision a tank battle on Indian tank country.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 30 Jun 20, at 21:31.

  14. #1094
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    If Quad does not matter to China why does it not like it when the four get together. They're paranoid.
    They belly yap about anything anti-China but that doesn't mean that they consider QUAD a military threat. The JSDF and the ADF have exactly zero plans to come to India's border disputes with China and China knows it.

  15. #1095
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    We should have gone for 114 F-16s/shornets in 2014/15. 50% would have been delivered by now. What's the use of half a trillion of forex reserves if we can't stare down authoritarian regimes? We have fcuks for leaders, short term baniya mentality thinkers.

    What China says doesn't matter, what the world seems to think matters. World opinion is on our side.
    According to AIM the problem with getting closer to the US isn't China but Russia.

    Getting too close will alienate Russia, then the central asian republics will domino fall and we will have a central Asian block against us. Then we become a frontline state for China to attack.

    China, Russia, Pakistan, CAR & Iran against us. Complete geopolitical encirclement. An arc around us. String of pearls is nothing in comparison.

    Many countries might not have a problem with encirclement but we're dead scared of it as we cannot get our economic & military act together to deal with it.

    Still with me ?


    There is a reason i lost the plot when Ukraine happened because i sensed we were screwed at that point. I was under the impression that post Soviet collapse that whatever happened in Europe had no effect in Asia. NIL !! Ah well, almost...the assumption holds so long as the US & Russians don't end up on opposite sides.

    Russians always had a great suspicion of China. But post Ukraine, animosity between the west & Russia is so great that Russia has no option left but to bandwagon with China.

    The Russians don't want us to abandon them rather they want us to join them in the Chinese camp so both of us can undermine China from within. We're not so confident we can do that to China from within.



    For a long time both India & US had the same goal which is to prevent any one power block from monopolizing Asia.

    During the cold war our aim was to break the Sino Soviet nexus just like the Americans. But Nehru mismanaged the relationship to the point where Americans are upset with us and we end up on opposite sides even though we had the same strategic goal. Takes special skills to balls this up (!)

    Today the picture is different. US does not care for Russia or China and even if they get together. But India still wants these two divided.

    US does not care if Russia, China get together but US is not happy if India joins them. So India has to stay out of it.

    India still wants to break up Russia & China. US does not want to break up Russia & China.

    To balance against China, India has to go with the US because Russia will not.

    If we get closer to the US, then Russia goes closer to China which we cannot tolerate.

    This is the fundamental contradiction between the US & Indian goals.

    We cannot get closer to the US to ensure Russia stays away from China.

    At the same time we cannot balance off China without the US.

    So its a catch 22 situation.

    Bash non-alignment all you want but we're still stuck with it.

    What to do ? build up a massive level of interoperability with the USN & USAF.

    Buy Russian arms as a testing platform to see how well the western tech performs against.

    Build up a modus vivendi with the US where we mostly support them except when it comes to Russia.



    There is another dilemma which he does not mention. A grand bargain develops between US & China. A G2.

    But fortunately this is quite unlikely for the forseeable future.

    US sees Russia as dangerous in Europe and China as dangerous in Asia.

    Not opposed to splitting the two but the two coming together cannot be counted out.



    AIM also calls out Shiv Shankar's formulation that India needs to be closer to the US & China than they are with each other.

    Profound but impossible if you think about it.

    He says the structures on the embankment in Galwan are Chinese. They have come 100m in only.

    But the thing is he says they are in Indian territory just not on the Indian side of the LAC. Eh ???
    Last edited by Double Edge; 01 Jul 20, at 01:32.

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