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Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

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  • A whole bunch of hogwash. QUAD ain't the alliance to scare China. You want to scare China? A Taiwan-Japan-South Korea Alliance is the one to do it, not this.

    Indian pundits could put whatever spin you want. QUAD ain't scaring China. Not a single one of those countries will ever initiate military action if any of the other is in trouble.
    Chimo

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    • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
      A whole bunch of hogwash. QUAD ain't the alliance to scare China. You want to scare China? A Taiwan-Japan-South Korea Alliance is the one to do it, not this.

      Indian pundits could put whatever spin you want. QUAD ain't scaring China. Not a single one of those countries will ever initiate military action if any of the other is in trouble.
      The idea suggested was one Indian ship in the SCS in concert with US, Aus, Japan, UK, French would send a louder signal in addition to sharing the burden with others as opposed to taking China on alone in the mountains.

      You've mentioned the Taiwan-Japan-South Korea alliance before but it was hard to get them to work together for historical reasons.

      Quad exists, it can become more potent with time. ASEAN is dead against it because it bypasses them and in a way it came about because ASEAN was easily compromised. One veto means all other 12 have to abide.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        The idea suggested was one Indian ship in the SCS in concert with US, Aus, Japan, UK, French would send a louder signal in addition to sharing the burden with others as opposed to taking China on alone in the mountains.
        FONOPs. It's been done to death by every NATO, ANZUS, South Korean, and Japanese Navies. Adding India to the list is just another straw. The Chinese camel's back has already been broken.

        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        You've mentioned the Taiwan-Japan-South Korea alliance before but it was hard to get them to work together for historical reasons.
        The point being that China has nothing to fear from QUAD.

        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        Quad exists, it can become more potent with time.
        It will still be just as effective as ASEAN. Australian and Japanese Navies are not obligated to sail if Indian armies march north. In fact, they won't.

        What's more. The Chinese knows it. We know it. Only Indian pundits don't know it. Their hypocrisy is that they don't want India involve in any China-Taiwan conflict.
        Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 27 Jun 20,, 19:47.
        Chimo

        Comment


        • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
          FONOPs. It's been done to death by every NATO, ANZUS, South Korean, and Japanese Navies. Adding India to the list is just another straw. The Chinese camel's back has already been broken.
          Then how does India make a difference here ?

          Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
          The point being that China has nothing to fear from QUAD.

          It will still be just as effective as ASEAN. Australian and Japanese Navies are not obligated to sail if Indian armies march north. In fact, they won't.
          It's not a military alliance yet, more of a talk shop. At this point in time you have a political alignment with the leaders.

          Aussies elect Labour, India goes Congress could change the picture. China's continued belligerence won't go away though.

          Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
          What's more. The Chinese knows it. We know it. Only Indian pundits don't know it. Their hypocrisy is that they don't want India involve in any China-Taiwan conflict.
          How does India make a difference there ?

          Have to become an ally or are there other options
          Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Jun 20,, 20:50.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
            France and the UK didn't but what it does mean is that if the Americans launch, you launch. If they don't launch, you don't launch. You will have no independent nuclear doctrine and you have just become a Russian target.
            Ok, so you've covered the nuclear part.

            What about ROE's ? what protocols would border patrols have to change if in an alliance with the US.

            Some people were saying China can take liberties with Indian soldiers it dare not do with Taiwanese or Japanese personnel.

            But this also means there's strict controls on personnel of those countries too.

            Do you know of any instances were Taiwanese or Japanese personnel died as a result of Chinese actions ?

            NK leave out, they are sui generis
            Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Jun 20,, 20:49.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              Then how does India make a difference here ?
              It's rubbing salt in the wound. With NATO, ANZUS, Japan, and South Korea, the Chinese can at least say that they had Big Brother US backing them up. It really rubs them when they see an inferior power (their view) doing the same.

              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              It's not a military alliance yet, more of a talk shop. At this point in time you have a political alignment with the leaders.
              Which would NOT make them change their policy or behaviour one single bit. The Chinese will not back off the Sino-Indo border just because some Indian birdbrains are learning to fly in the US or Australian boat people swimming in the Indian Ocean.

              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              How does India make a difference there ?

              Have to become an ally or are there other options
              Be realistic and wake up from dreamland. India is not going to march an army north if a Chinese fleet sails east nor are Australian birds going to fly over the Himalayas to save Indian bellycrawlers. Taiwan is not, rightfully so, planning for an Indian Army to come to her rescue. India should not expect anything useful against China from QUAD. If you're going to war against China, plan so doing it alone ... as your HQs are doing without help from anyone, rightfully so.
              Chimo

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                Ok, so you've covered the nuclear part.

                What about ROE's ? what protocols would border patrols have to change if in an alliance with the US.
                Mine the shit out of the LAC and man the machine gun nests.

                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                Some people were saying China can take liberties with Indian soldiers it dare not do with Taiwanese or Japanese personnel.
                They're right. The Chinese have done more to the Taiwanese and the Japanese. They fished out Taiwanese and Japanese waters. Chinese fishing fleets have depleted the fish stocks around Taiwanese and Japanese waters. All the Chinese have done to India is to kung fu Indian soldiers. They've taken food out of Taiwanese and Japanese mouths.

                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                But this also means there's strict controls on personnel of those countries too.
                Japanese Coast Guard have arrested Chinese fishing vessels.

                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                Do you know of any instances were Taiwanese or Japanese personnel died as a result of Chinese actions ?
                No, but Chinese personel have, mainly from accidents aboard their vessels while performing action against Taiwanese and Japanese ships.
                Chimo

                Comment


                • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                  It's rubbing salt in the wound. With NATO, ANZUS, Japan, and South Korea, the Chinese can at least say that they had Big Brother US backing them up. It really rubs them when they see an inferior power (their view) doing the same.
                  Right, so you do agree it will be noticed for the signal India intends to convey. I'm ignoring for a moment that India like China does not like FONOPS.

                  Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                  Which would NOT make them change their policy or behaviour one single bit. The Chinese will not back off the Sino-Indo border just because some Indian birdbrains are learning to fly in the US or Australian boat people swimming in the Indian Ocean.
                  So India decides to crimp flow of China's traffic near the Malacca strait. The Chinese have already forseen this back in 2005.

                  Wouldn't quad powers have an interest in participating in this action ? That is an action that would cause concern to China.

                  Ignore for the moment communications protocols issues between India and the rest of the quad.

                  Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                  Be realistic and wake up from dreamland. India is not going to march an army north if a Chinese fleet sails east nor are Australian birds going to fly over the Himalayas to save Indian bellycrawlers. Taiwan is not, rightfully so, planning for an Indian Army to come to her rescue. India should not expect anything useful against China from QUAD. If you're going to war against China, plan so doing it alone ... as your HQs are doing without help from anyone, rightfully so.
                  There's people who firmly believe India is the only power in Asia that can take on China alone ie without being in any alliance.. Or has the potential to.

                  It would make sense for China to provoke a fight any time between now and the next ten years to set India back a few decades.

                  And India would do its best to avoid one in this decade.
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Jun 20,, 21:51.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                    Right, so you do agree it will be noticed for the signal India intends to convey. I'm ignoring for a moment that India like China does not like FONOPS.
                    The point is that FONOPs have already done their job. India maybe rubbing salt into the wound but the wound has already been openned. China is not thinking that she has to up her game to stop India. China is thinking she has to up her game to stop the US. If she does that, the rest will follow ... not likely anytime soon.

                    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                    So India decides to crimp flow of China's traffic near the Malacca strait. The Chinese have already forseen this back in 2005.

                    Wouldn't quad powers have an interest in participating in this action ? That is an action that would cause concern to China.

                    Ignore for the moment communications protocols issues between India and the rest of the quad.
                    Then you will see American, Japanese, and Australian ships sinking the Indian Navy. You forget that China is vital to International Trade. QUAD is dead the second you talk about raising prices of Chinese goods.

                    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                    There's people who firmly believe India is the only power in Asia that can take on China alone ie without being in any alliance.. Or has the potential to.

                    It would make sense for China to provoke a fight any time between now and the next ten years to set India back a few decades.
                    I'm one of them but aside from border pissing contests, neither power is interested in a full blown war. It would set both countries back years.

                    Remembert two things. What is the easiest way to take a castle? A donkey loaded with gold. What is the second easiest way to take a castle? Scare the shit out of the castle by showing them what you've done to the last castle. China is doing both.
                    Chimo

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                      Mine the shit out of the LAC and man the machine gun nests.
                      There are areas where we enter into each others territories. Mining is drawing a line on the map. Neither side wants to show their map.

                      Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                      The point is that FONOPs have already done their job. India maybe rubbing salt into the wound but the wound has already been openned. China is not thinking that she has to up her game to stop India. China is thinking she has to up her game to stop the US. If she does that, the rest will follow ... not likely anytime soon.
                      Ok, so Indian warship in the SCS is just symbolic then

                      Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                      Then you will see American, Japanese, and Australian ships sinking the Indian Navy. You forget that China is vital to International Trade. QUAD is dead the second you talk about raising prices of Chinese goods.
                      In that case India cannot do anything to China in the ocean unless US declares war on China.

                      Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                      Remembert two things. What is the easiest way to take a castle? A donkey loaded with gold. What is the second easiest way to take a castle? Scare the shit out of the castle by showing them what you've done to the last castle. China is doing both.
                      You use the first one a lot on this board. I don't get the significance. Other than to say we allowed China access to our economy and ended up having a big trade deficit with them.

                      As for scaring the IA with Jun 15, i don't know if that was enough.

                      India is trying to also play a game.

                      If we can resist China and be successful so can others ; )

                      Show China they cannot win.

                      Taiwan has done that for over fifty years now.

                      See, i always get corrected when i say this about Taiwan because they are a US treaty ally or closest equivalent.

                      Well, that didn't stop Mao throwing his PLA into Korea now did it.
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Jun 20,, 23:25.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                        I'm one of them but aside from border pissing contests, neither power is interested in a full blown war. It would set both countries back years.
                        No trust which means we keep our guard up.

                        India must believe threat of war is real, even if Chinese build-up is coercive diplomacy | The Print | Jun 27 2020

                        I don't know if this is the media being speculative or not. It's almost like they are preparing us for a border skirmish albeit limited.

                        Walk the talk with Brajesh Mishra | NDTV | May 2003

                        When he talks here you can see he set the course for the path we are on today with the US. Imagine Vajpayee saying US is a natural ally in parliament given the previous history we had with the US.

                        Our late former NSA does have a striking resemblance to the spinnaker character from Sum of all Fears.
                        Last edited by Double Edge; 28 Jun 20,, 06:11.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                          You use the first one a lot on this board. I don't get the significance. Other than to say we allowed China access to our economy and ended up having a big trade deficit with them.

                          As for scaring the IA with Jun 15, i don't know if that was enough.
                          India is the Castle. China wants India to assume a vassal status. You can see they're trying to do the same to Canada with the Huawei fiasco. It's not about actually taking over India but rather India to adopt friendly Chinese policies. In this case, don't get too cozy with the Americans because there are consequences - namely the US will not come to India's aide.

                          Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                          Well, that didn't stop Mao throwing his PLA into Korea now did it.
                          Mao saw MacArthur's advance to the Yalu as an existenial threat. Warnings were relayed through India not to advance to the Yalu. Mao was ready to accept an American occupation of Pyongyang but occupation of Yalu's southern river banks were intolerable.

                          Taiwan is also an existential threat to China. As long as Taiwan remains outside of Beijing's control, China is not whole.
                          Chimo

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                            A whole bunch of hogwash. QUAD ain't the alliance to scare China. You want to scare China? A Taiwan-Japan-South Korea Alliance is the one to do it, not this.

                            Indian pundits could put whatever spin you want. QUAD ain't scaring China. Not a single one of those countries will ever initiate military action if any of the other is in trouble.
                            I am looking forward to the skills that IAF pilots would gather, training besides other quality AFs of the world, if this proposal goes through.
                            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                              I am looking forward to the skills that IAF pilots would gather, training besides other quality AFs of the world, if this proposal goes through.
                              Put your pilots on the unemployment line and get your geeks to up their game in encryption, signal burn through, and drone flights. I don't give a damn on how good the F22 or F35 is. No human pilot could ever withstand the g-forces a pilotless drone could put up with. If you want to keep the man in the loop, sit him in the AWACS controlling the drone.
                              Chimo

                              Comment


                              • ^ Hah! Now you're supporting AI, with a man in a dark room, deciding who to kill. I like that.
                                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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