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Thread: Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

  1. #76
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuku View Post
    I have been in drunken brawls more dangerous than these, and with some Bhutanese boys...
    Just goes to show how tight the ROE's are. No pushing, shoving or punching. Hugging is ok. No guns, just cameras. Those troops are more afraid of their own XO's than the guys on the other side.

    Which is how it should be. Can't plunge both powers into war because some guys on the border shot the other up.

    Should go to Bhutan and talk to its people. They are more pro Indian than some of our dear Kashmiri brothers.
    Have been learning more about the eastern border with this incident than many earlier ones combined. Bhutan has never come up but if the Chinese wanted to move, they just overrun Bhutan and use it as a base to move further south. Sikkim is hard to take as we control the high ground there. Probably explains our confidence. By moving the goalposts south from Batang La to Gamochen, allows a flanking move. Move deeper into the Chumbi valley. No need to be an expert in land manouver warfare to understand this.

    Understandably the Indian Army sees this. What Henderson Brooks brought out was the disconnect between civilian leadership and military. Where is that in evidence here. You can be sure whatever we've done so far has been okayed at the highest level. There is no disconnect. Both military & civilian leadership are on the same page.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Jul 17, at 16:38.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Understandably the Indian Army sees this. What Henderson Brooks brought out was the disconnect between civilian leadership and military. Where is that in evidence here. You can be sure whatever we've done so far has been okayed at the highest level. There is no disconnect. Both military & civilian leadership are on the same page.
    And IMV that reflects the confidence that the GoI have in the armed forces and the strategic calculation per se. Not much to lose. Punching with the appropriate weight as Mr. Doval said in one of his early lectures.

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    How China cleverly managed to play both instigator and victim in the Doklam stand-off

    Four weeks and running, the India-China standoff at Doklam shows no sign of ending. Yes, this one near the borders of India, China and Bhutan seems different and more menacing. It is the first time that India has engaged China from a third country — a fact that seems to have shocked some layers of the Chinese establishment.

    The message from China’s official, quasi-official and non-official sources is the same, the difference being the degree of belligerence: India is at fault, it must back down, withdraw its troops and let Bhutan and China sort out their boundary dispute. In other words, China should have the freedom to coerce a tiny country.

    Hidden Tiger
    India has maintained a calm but firm stance, kept the temperature low on its side and sent signals it wants to sort the problem with dialogue. The reporting has been sane with none of the hyperbole coming out of various founts of the Chinese media machine. Thankfully, there has been no charge of the Indian TV brigade.

    Outside experts have weighed in —deconstructing the developments with keen insights. Lapsed ones like 1962 Sino-Indian war scholar Neville Maxwell have also offered their predictable views based on realities frozen in the past. Interestingly, Maxwell’s diatribe came without any input from the Chinese. He was floundering for information from sources far from Beijing. The rest was bias.

    The reasons for China forcing a boundary dispute front and centre are many. China under President Xi Jinping has flapped its wings all around: from the oceans to the Himalayas to test the resolve of targeted countries. This also happens to be an ‘election’ year in China — even though the winner of the game of thrones is already known.

    The 19th Congress of the Chinese Communist Party is expected to anoint Xi for a second term. But he is manoeuvring to stay in power beyond the traditional 10 years. At least one prominent rival was put under investigation last week for — what else? —party indiscipline. Xi could be around until 2027.

    There was no pressing need for the current confrontation with India. But it is continuation of adversarial politics by other means. The mythology around the closed Chinese system is so exaggerated that Western experts step gingerly around its constant aggressions, almost afraid to call China out as they do Russia.

    The Chinese have cleverly managed to play both instigator and victim in the Doklam stand-off. Making a distinction between India and Bhutan, and treating them separately without any cognisance of the India-Bhutan Friendship Treaty, profits the Chinese. It allows Beijing to demand that India unilaterally vacate its positions on China’s terms. The Chinese also chose the time carefully.

    Their road-building in Doklam came before Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s meeting with US President Donald Trump, and after his meeting with Xi in Astana on the margins of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) summit.

    Earlier, border transgressions, such as the one in Depsang, occurred when Sino-Indian relations were relatively stable — or at least in better shape than they are now. Who bears primary blame for deterioration is a matter of judgement.

    After Modi naïvely tried to establish a personal relationship with Xi and failed, the more innate parts of the BJP’s thinking on China appear to have crept in. This may have partly led India to ‘expose’ China on issues related to Pakistan: India’s entry into the Nuclear Suppliers’ Group (NSG) and efforts to get Pakistani terrorists on the UN sanctions list.

    Crouching Dragon
    Acycle of action and reaction followed. The Chinese were apoplectic when the Dalai Lama visited Arunachal Pradesh. But why shouldn’t a religious leader travel freely in India? The list of hostile acts by the Chinese against India is long, starting with making Pakistan into a bigger nuisance than it already was by augmenting its nuclear and missile capabilities. They completed the circle by running the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPECBSE -4.45 %) through territory claimed by India.

    China’s ‘string of pearls’ strategy of systematically influencing India’s closest neighbours, its forays into the Indian Ocean and the constant border incursions despite management mechanisms laboriously put in place — Beijing has constantly tried to restrict India’s strategic space while slowly gobbling land bit by bit. India’s proximity to the US is deemed suspect and destabilising for Asia. But China can seek a ‘new type of major power relations’ with Washington.

    China can violate agreements it signed in the past by simply pleading it was ‘weak’ then, even though it has been courted by different blocs since the middle of the last century. China has successfully kept the Association of South Asian Nations (Asean) divided for years, never allowing a consensus to emerge on a ‘code of conduct’ for settling disputes in the South China Sea.

    In China’s worldview, no one has the same rights and privileges it does. Not for nothing does China call itself the Middle Kingdom. It’s not the middle between Left and Right, but the middle around which the world revolves. Those who know the language and Chinese characters say people often miss this nuance.

    No one can predict how or when the current stand-off will end. But we know intimidation is a bully’s primary tactic. And if you are not intimidated, the bully normally backs off.

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    Fake Chinese spares for indigenised Bofors guns: CBI FIR

    NEW DELHI: China-made parts camouflaged as 'Made in Germany' found their way to the production line of indigenised Bofors guns used by the army, prompting the CBI to file a case against a Delhi-based company.

    Besides Sidh Sales Syndicate, the CBI also registered a case against unidentified officials of the Guns Carriage Factory (GCF), Jabalpur, under criminal conspiracy, cheating and forgery for supplying fake and cheap China-made spares passing off as Made in Germany for Dhanush guns, the FIR alleged.

    Dhanush is the indigenised version of the Bofors artillery guns which performed exceedingly well during the Kargil conflict in 1999.

    The CBI alleged that the supplier entered into criminal conspiracy with the unidentified GCF officials to supply duplicate spare parts (bearings) used in the manufacture of Dhanush guns.

    "In furtherance of the said criminal conspiracy, unknown officials of GCF accepted the Chinese manufactured 'Wire Race Roller Bearings' supplied by Sidh Sales Syndicate which were embossed as 'CRB-Made in Germany'," the CBI said in the FIR.

    The agency said production and performance of the Dhanush gun is extremely crucial for India's defence preparedness and "wire race roller bearing" is its vital component.

    A tender was floated for the procurement of four such bearings according to the Rothe Erde drawing for 155 mm gun in which four firms had participated. The order was given to Sidh Sales Syndicate at the value of Rs 35.38 lakh in 2013, the FIR stated.

    The order was further increased to six bearings at the cost of Rs 53.07 lakh on August 27, 2014.

    The company supplied two bearings each on three occasions between April 7, 2014 and August 12, 2014.
    GCF tests showed that the bearings were unacceptable due to deviations in dimensions.
    The company provided clarifications and assured that in case of non performance of the bearing due to manufacturing defects, they would replace the bearing free of cost and take corrective action for future supply.

    "Consequently the bearings were accepted as a special case by unknown officials of GCF Jabalpur," the CBI alleged.

    Information received by the CBI shows that the German company does not manufacture these parts.

    The company submitted 'certificates in origin' showing the bearings were procured from CRB Antriebstechnik, Germany. They were also embossed with the label, CRB-Made in Germany.

    It showed that Sidh Sales Syndicate got the six bearings manufactured by Sino United Industries (Luyang) Ltd Henan, China.

    The agency also seized several emails which were exchanged between China and Sidh Sales Syndicate. The letter from Germany shown by the company was also on forged letterhead, CBI alleged.

    The certificate of origin from Germany was also forged.

    "The said forged letter and certificate were accepted by unidentified officials of GCF with ulterior motive and by abusing their official positions as such without ascertaining the genuineness of the said letter and certiciates and cause undue advantage to Sidh Sales Syndicate and corresponding loss to the Government of India," the investigating agency said in the FIR.
    Greed. Now rot entire life in jail.

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    Sushma Swaraj is lying, India should get ready for a military confrontation: Chinese media

    But, then again, Sikkim standoff should not threaten RCEP deal: Chinese media

    The Indian media should tone down it's crappy headlines. For one, they can't do propaganda, nor sell one. It's pathetic the level they reach to earn revenue.
    Last edited by Oracle; 21 Jul 17, at 16:27.

  6. #81
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Part i found amusing was the Chinese media calling out fake news from the Paks : D

    Chinese media rejects fake news report of Indian soldiers’ death in Chinese attack | People's Daily | Jul 18 2017

    Chinese mainstream media outlets on Tuesday denounced Pakistani media’s “groundless” report, which claims that over 150 Indian soldiers were killed in Sikkim due to a Chinese rocket attack.

    According to Dunya News, a 24-hours Urdu language news service in Pakistan, at least 158 Indian soldiers died and several others injured on Monday due to a Chinese rocket attack across the border.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 22 Jul 17, at 03:57.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Part i found amusing was the Chinese media calling out fake news from the Paks : D

    Chinese media rejects fake news report of Indian soldiers’ death in Chinese attack | People's Daily | Jul 18 2017
    I read it, but knew it was a fake propaganda, so I did not post it. You'd also notice how the Pak FO and ISPR don't claim Pak army casualties. The have to stay relevant. Pak life doesn't matter to them.

  8. #83
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Here is the GT article referred to

    http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1057440.shtml

    China cannot afford to "lose an inch" of territory. This is the sacred wish and request of the Chinese people. The Chinese government will not breach the fundamental will of the people and the PLA will not let the Chinese people down.
    This cannot lose an inch is curious. Its what Nehru demanded in 62 and created trouble for the military because they had to defend weak areas instead of giving them up and gaining from stronger positions. After the conflict swap territory.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 22 Jul 17, at 11:52.

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    Ex-US Senator explains how US can help India deliver a devastating blow to China - LARRY PRESSLER
    I can recall many informal conversations in the 1950s and ’60s with my fellow Americans about India. They viewed India as part of the Soviet bloc. In those days, the Soviet Union supplied India with weapons and ships. The rhetoric in India was decidedly anti-American and the rhetoric in the United States was very anti-India, despite the shared democratic and entrepreneurial traditions in both countries.

    World maps posted in US classrooms in the 1950s and 1960s highlighted American allies. Pakistan was always listed as an ally and India was not.

    In the run-up to the 1971 war with Pakistan over Bangladesh, it appeared to me that India faced the danger of a war on two fronts: Pakistan as well as China. At the time, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi signed a treaty for mutual security cooperation with Moscow. This proved effective in keeping China out of the 1971 war, and formed a strong foundation for growing Indo-Soviet cooperation in military and economic affairs.

    However, I saw that it further alienated the United States and it made our diplomats wary of dealing with India. I was working at the State Department at that time and the distrust between India and the US was at an all-time high.

    When President Richard Nixon paid an official visit to Prime Minister Indira Gandhi earlier that year, the tension between the two of them was evident — even in still photographs. They detested each other and Prime Minister Gandhi made her feelings clear to president Nixon that day. It was a stunning and stinging snub of an American president.

    I noted warily Pakistan’s role in assisting the United States’ efforts to open diplomatic doors to China in 1971 and, later, as a facilitator of aid to the Afghan resistance fighters against the Soviet occupation in the 1980s. As a result, the US effectively looked the other way when it came to Pakistan’s nuclear programme and the assistance it obtained from China for its missile and nuclear programmes. That is, until the Pressler Amendment was enacted and enforced.

    All of these events, of course, have coloured the relationship between India and the US. India’s nuclear test in 1974 did not help matters. The United States saw this move as irresponsible, but what I think Americans failed to understand was that India wanted to be recognised as a mature power with a nuclear deterrent against a nuclear-armed adversary, China, which it had always considered its biggest rival and threat.

    India also wanted to offset the unpredictable Pakistan next door. We still treated India as a colonial stepchild and continued to punish the country for its Russian affiliation. It seems to me that any measure India took to defend itself against other nuclear powers like China — and, later, Pakistan — was a legitimate right.

    The United States acted like a two-faced ally to India. We acknowledged India’s fears of a nuclear-armed Pakistan and gave lip service to this threat, but did nothing about it. We continued to fund Pakistan’s military to support the goal of fighting the spectre of communism anywhere in the world at the expense of furthering our nuclear non-proliferation goals in South Asia.

    Now, once again, we are funding the rogue government of Pakistan because we need their questionable help in fighting the terrorists in Afghanistan. This move risks the use of US taxpayer money for purposes contrary to our interests. To my mind, it seems befitting that India and the US should be the closest of allies — more so than they are currently. We should have a "super alliance".

    As the largest democracy in South Asia, India is more like the United States than any other country in that region. However, other than advancements largely in information technology and intellectual property, a large proportion of the Indian people are so impoverished that they are essentially oppressed. Weapons and arms — that has been the principal focus between our two governments, and that saddens me.

    I strongly believe we need to do more to promote India’s interests worldwide. We tout England and Israel as our closest allies, yet India’s democratic government, location, brain trust, and trade synergies make it a natural and potentially more important economic and geopolitical ally for the future. We should decisively choose India and stop pretending that India and Pakistan are diplomatically equal. We must downgrade Pakistan and treat it as it is: an irresponsible, dishonest, rogue state.

    As we continue to root out terrorists worldwide, it is important that we stand by our friends around the world who reflect our faith in democracy, entrepreneurship, human rights and religious freedom. India is the biggest of these friends. We must make the alliance between the democracies of India and the United States a robust economic one, built on a foundation of trust, shared democratic values and mutually beneficial trade and knowledge-sharing.

    India should be granted a special relationship with the United States, one that gives it a preferred status in trade, knowledge-sharing, intelligence-sharing, immigration and defence. Part of that defence should include defending India against China.

    I recognise that defence officials view China as America’s biggest potential threat in the world today. At least one of the historical motivations for continuing aid to Pakistan was to prevent it from becoming a client state of China’s. The Obama administration quietly started executing its "Pacific Pivot" strategy, which has been turning our diplomats’ and our navy’s focus to Asia, and more specifically, to China. Perhaps to amplify this threat, the Octopus provokes and pokes China.

    When I was in Cambodia in 2010, for instance, the US sailed big warships into Cambodian ports, allegedly bringing in medical supplies. But my State Department contacts told me it was actually a show of force to irritate the Chinese — and to reinforce the importance of maintaining open sea lanes for international trade. Naval manoeuvres like these are strictly a way for the Octopus to taunt the Chinese and remind them that the US is in control and committed to keeping international waters free and open — especially in the South China Sea.

    This strategy involves the cooperation of India as well. Over the course of my lifetime, I have witnessed India migrate from a pro-Russian country with an anti-American prime minister to a pro-American country and one of our closest allies in the region. I recall in the 1950s listening to very anti-American remarks from VK Krishna Menon, the legendary Indian ambassador to the United Nations.

    Now Prime Minister Modi says just the opposite of what Menon said — a 180-degree shift. It seems to me that both India and the US see the other as important allies in containing the geopolitical influence of China.

    Name:  book_072117082640.jpg
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    In my recent discussions with current and former senior navy officials, I have learnt that the United States is on the verge of a massive effort to help build up the Indian Navy, and outfit its navy ships with nuclear weapons. The Indian Navy’s ship inventory is being significantly modernised.

    Most notable was the secret commissioning in August 2016 of its first nuclear ballistic missile submarine (SSBN), the INS Arihant, and the January 2017 test of a long-range nuclear-capable submarine-launched ballistic missile from an underwater pontoon.

    The Chinese are posturing aggressively against the US Navy in the Philippines and the Spratly Islands, a disputed group of islands in the South China Sea near Vietnam. This archipelago is situated in the middle of important air and sea navigation routes. Free access to the South China Sea is critical for international trade and travel. In addition, there are oil and gas reserves there.

    We really do not want a naval war with China. It would be costly to defend a place like the Spratly Islands. But we can send China a devastating message by strengthening the Indian Navy. An Indian Navy that has the capability of delivering nuclear weapons would cause China great concern.

    In fact, if we actually outfitted the Indian Navy with nuclear weapons, China might back down from its antagonistic stance in the region.

    (Re-printed with the publisher's permission.)
    This kind of voices are very common in US circles now. Been like this for, well 5 years or so. The part in bold is interesting.

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  11. #86
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    For all those questioning what strategic issue could Lou have possibly discussed with this political leader (vice-president of a prominent party) and the others, they would do well to study China’s concept of ‘Deep Coalitions’ that may consist of multiple nation-states, civil society organizations, narco-mafias, private corporations whose interest are at stake, individual speculator (s), and other components. Deep Coalition involves players at many levels of the system; it is multi-dimensional with all groups operating all the time, in continuous flow – multiplying, fissioning, then fusing into others, and so on.
    Russians wrote the book on hybrid warfare. The idea is to challenge free countries by using their strengths against them. Press freedom means can insert fake news. Multi-party system means sponsor those who will do your bidding. Eastern Europe knows all about it. The end is to diminish the faith people place in the very ideas and institutions that set them apart from authoritarian regimes. India's democracy is quite mature now so there is only so far they can get with this idea. But it can still cause a lot of wheels to spin.

    Been thinking how what was used in East and west Europe and the US could be adapted to India. Who would be the perpetrator. Certainly not the Russians. Paks are too obvious. Let's see what the Chinese can do : )

    This means there will only be more calls for transparency bla bla. Who is funding who. That is purposely left opaque in India as well as the US. Democracy does not come for cheap. The Russians aren't going to give up messing with the US. What deterrent can the US employ. How do free countries defend themselves here. Do they need to. Hard to get anything coherent out of the Americans right now with half of them screaming bloody murder. Bickering over nothing as one member here put it : D
    Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Jul 17, at 01:02.

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    Indian, Chinese diplomats must prevent war: Chinese expert

    BEIJING: War between India and China over Doklam is a possibility and diplomats from both sides must prevent an armed conflict, a Chinese expert has said.

    Long Xingchun, a research fellow at The Charhar Institute and director of the Center for Indian Studies at China West Normal University, said there were "precedents of the unnecessary war in the past" and the looming one between India and China will harm both countries.

    Long also said it was wrong to think that China was using the Doklam border stand-off for the Communist Party of China National Congress to be held later this year.

    "A war is not completely impossible. There is a great deal of precedents of unnecessary battles fought at the completely wrong time and place. So far, it is the prime goal of diplomats of both sides to prevent a war that neither wants," Long wrote in the Global Times.

    Indian and Chinese troops have been engaged in over a month long stand-off in Doklam, which is at a tri-junction of India, Bhutan and China.

    India wants the issue to be resolved diplomatically, but China says the withdrawal of troops by India is a precondition for talks.

    "To this end, they must not bluff. The 1962 war, triggered as India operated the Forward Policy, has left Indians hostile toward China for decades. A larger war today may give rise to strong animosity between the two sides for centuries."

    Long also slammed Indian journalists in China and Indian experts on China for blaming Beijing and state-run media for stoking tensions.

    Chinese media and experts have launched a blitzkrieg against India and called for war.

    "China doesn't want a war. Many Indian media outlets and analysts put all the blame on China for the stand-off and conclude that China had plotted to provoke the conflict in an attempt to divert attention from its internal problems.

    "The reports even related the face-off to the 19th Communist Party of China National Congress to be held later this year. This bookish analysis reflects what little knowledge of China some Indian media and scholars have."

    He said there were not more than 200 China experts in India of which only 10 per cent can read or speak Chinese.

    "Regrettably, it is these people that shape India's understanding and judgment of China."

    "China does have many domestic problems, nonetheless they are no more serious than what's facing India internally. In fact, to prepare for the 19th Party Congress, China needs domestic harmony and a peaceful international environment rather than conflict, a point which may be hard for Indians to understand," he writes.

    "If India fights a large-scale war with China now, it will not only scare away foreign investment but also disrupt India's economy.

    "Even if a war is brief, China and India may still be locked in a standoff for a long time. In this case, India will have its economic momentum disrupted and lose its opportunities to rise."


    India has blamed China for trying to change the status of the India-Bhutan-China tri-junction, and ruled out unilateral withdrawal of Indian troops.

    Indian External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj last week said that China's attempt to build a road through Bhutan posed a security challenge to India.

    On China's insistence that India withdraw troops from Doklam, she said: "India wants that all troops are removed from the tri-junction point before discussing the issue together. All countries, including Bhutan, are with us."

    The matter is expected to feature in talks between National Security Advisor Ajit Doval and his Chinese counterpart State Councillor Yang Jiechi when they meet on July 27-28 in Beijing at a NSAs meet from BRICS countries.
    They're trying very hard to salvage Xis' image before the CPC's National Congress.

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