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Thread: Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

  1. #511
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    True, but what is the intent of building a road there ? to extend what already exists isn't it.

    Use google earth to explore the area reported and tell me where the nearest existing Chinese road is ? I see Indian settlements there but not too many Chinese ones unless you go further up the river on their side

    If its a patrol that's something else but the article specifically mentioned road building. Unless the area mentioned isn't correct.

    But i've shown you at least four places mentioned and they are all in close proximity so i think i got the location right
    Last edited by Double Edge; 04 Jan 18, at 16:11.

  2. #512
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    We've decided to let 'em off lightly in the spirit of good neighbourly relations. With the proviso not to let it happen again

    Given them the benefit of the doubt because they don't know where the border is

    The reason for that is their representatives refuse to sit down with us and mark out where that border is, valley by valley, ridge line to the next and so on in that area

    So they have their maps and we have ours

    The line is to look at this separately and not to lump it in with their previous actions so as to reduce this China syndrome

    As for the troops at Doklam , the army chief said there has been a reduction of Chinese troops. No disagreeing comment from the Chinese side on this point
    Last edited by Double Edge; 12 Jan 18, at 00:32.

  3. #513
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    This is how the chinese edition of the Global WHINES reported it


    Jan 10 2018

    Our correspondent in India, Yi Jian

    Several Indian media reported on the 9th that “India and China avoided another confrontation between the two countries” when, three days ago, Indian and Chinese border personnel held meetings in “Arunachal Pradesh” (Southern Tibet region of China). Both parties agreed to settle the border dispute that took place in this area at the end of last year.

    Indian media earlier quoted sources as saying that around December 28 last year, villagers in the Sanglang area in Arubachal province of India discovered that a Chinese road building team had “intruded into Indian territory” with bulldozers. The Times of India reported on the 9th that the Indian Army Chief of Staff, Rawat, told reporters on the 8th that the incident has been resolved. The Chinese side agreed to stop road construction on the Indian side of the Line of Actual Control and the Indian side to return the seized Chinese excavators and other equipment. The website of the CNN-18 news network quoted government sources as saying that the incident was resolved amicably on the basis of negotiations conducted by the Commanders of the two forces.

    However, some print media were not so friendly. India Today continued to hype on the 9th that exclusive video footage it had shows that not only was there a civilian (private) road construction team involved in this “intrusion” but that the Chinese Government was fully aware of it. Prior to this, India’s New Delhi television station had quoted sources as saying that the Indian National Security Council Secretariat report showed that the incident was only an “inadvertent mistake by Chinese workers” and that no PLA personnel were involved.

    At the beginning of the new year, India added a new element of disequilibrium/instability to the not-so-quiet Sino-Indian border. Indian media reported that Indian Prime Minister Modi was likely to visit to “Arunachal Pradesh” early this year. On the 8th, after Rawat disclosed peaceful resolution of the isue between India and China, he (also) said that at present China has drastically reduced the force deployed in the Donglang area. However, in the future, India will need to combat more difficult terrain and complex environments and the military must prepare for this. India’s CNN-18 news network said that Rawat’s comments clearly pointed to China. He said that the Indian army needs large-scale modernization and that the army is prepared to introduce equipment and platforms manufactured by the Indian defense enterprises.

    China never recognisess the so-called “Arunachal” province. On the 9th, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman, Lu Kang, pointed out in his Press Conference that “the Chinese side has drastically reduced its troop strength” in Dong Lang. According to the statement, the Dong Lang region has always belonged to China and has always been under its effective control and that there is no dispute about it. Chinese border guards patrolling and manning/defending posts is in exercise of their sovereignty rights and safeguarding of territorial sovereignty in accordance with the stipulations of historical conventions.
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  4. #514
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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  5. #515
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Couple of explainers





  6. #516
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Who dunnit

    Five months on, understanding Doklam ‘disengagement’, a few other issues | IE | Jan 22 2018

    A couple of other questions can be answered more satisfactorily now. Who in the Chinese hierarchy ordered the extension of the track in Dolam from the point it had been constructed up to in 2003, to the Jampheri ridge? Was it President Xi Jinping, the general staff in the Central Military Commission, the Western Military Theatre Command, or the Tibetan Military Commander?

    Five months after the standoff ended, senior military commanders are certain that the track construction was ordered by General Zhao Zongqi, commander of the Chinese Western Theatre Command. General Zhao, who took over as Western Theatre Commander in February 2016 after being personally chosen by President Xi, had served in Tibet for over two decades, including as commander of 52 Mountain Brigade in the early 1990s.

    Even before the faceoff in Doklam, Chinese border troops had been telling Indian soldiers in daily interactions at multiple points on the Line of Actual Control (LAC) that General Zhao had walked each of these tracks with military patrols over 20 years, and had been rarely confronted by the Indians. As the Indian deployment has increased over the past decade, General Zhao is unwilling to accept the challenge to Chinese claims. Not only in Doklam, but also at other places on the LAC, they have attempted track construction, representing what a senior Indian military commander said was “an ego issue for General Zhao”.

    Another question that can now be answered: why did the disengagement not lead to a restoration of status quo ante, as with the Depsang and Chumar crises of 2013 and 2014? Diplomats who negotiated those two crises told The Indian Express that in both those cases, a written agreement was signed in Beijing, explicitly stating that status quo ante as on a date preceding the crisis would be restored. This was evidently not the case at Doklam, primarily because the faceoff was on territory that is disputed between Bhutan and China, and India-China bilateral mechanisms could not be readily applied.
    Zhao or no Zhao, the CCP did not object

    The Army had monitored the Chinese when they carried out the track alignment exercise in October and December 2016, and was prepared.

    The local Indian Brigade commander confronted the Chinese within 90 minutes of getting orders, and 450 soldiers were deployed in the next 12 hours to stop the track construction. No political constraints were put on the military commanders, and there was no physical contact between the sides during the faceoff.

    The resolve India displayed in deploying in another country’s territory took the Chinese completely by surprise — and they had no plan for this eventuality. The Army did not flinch even when the Chinese replaced their border guarding troops with Special Forces soldiers and high-end ISR equipment, and remained unaffected by the Chinese propaganda over loudspeakers at the site. No intelligence was available to the field commanders prior to or during the faceoff, and that could be detrimental at other places on the LAC where the Chinese have walk-in options.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 22 Jan 18, at 22:16.

  7. #517
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Government asks to skip Dalai Lama events, attempts to mend fences with Beijing | IE | Mar 2 2018

    Many believe that the Dalai Lama’s visit to Arunachal Pradesh from April 4 to 12 last year had provoked Beijing to take diplomatic and military moves that impacted the relationship adversely through much of 2017
    Oh really ?

    Given how they blocked us numerous times prior to that and Modi made no head way in 2015 when he visited i'd say we stopped giving a damn what Beijing thinks about anything.

    While New Delhi had consistently maintained that the Dalai Lama had travelled six times before and was a revered religious leader, who is deeply respected as such by the Indian people, and no additional colour should be ascribed to his religious and spiritual activities and visits to various states of India, Beijing had reacted sharply and had perceived his visit to Arunachal Pradesh as giving him political and official backing — since Arunachal Pradesh Chief Minister Pema Khandu, as well as Minister of State (Home) Kiren Rijiju, had received him there.
    So it turns we do have a Tibet card after all. We can piss them off on order

    Any time Beijing interjects itself on the Pak's behalf in Kashmir, they have now become a third party in that dispute due to CPEC is when we bring the Tibet card out.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 05 Mar 18, at 12:02.

  8. #518
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Has the GoI & the hon'ble Dalai Lama thought about a succession plan?

    Almost a year old, Dalai Lama’s Journey Provokes China, and Hints at His Heir

  9. #519
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Has the GoI & the hon'ble Dalai Lama thought about a succession plan?

    Almost a year old, Dalai Lama’s Journey Provokes China, and Hints at His Heir
    i think they have and they're keeping those cards pretty close. Keeps China guessing and off balance

    “This is a way of getting under the skin of the Chinese, of probing them, and reminding them that they have no control over where the next reincarnation occurs,” he said.

    As the Dalai Lama’s arrival in Tawang grew closer this week, Chinese statements grew increasingly bellicose, a tactic that has succeeded in pressuring officials of many countries to snub the Tibetan leader.

    Though India is typically wary of provoking China, several officials have been unusually pugnacious in their responses. Pema Khandu, the chief minister of Arunachal Pradesh, took the unusual step this week of stating that an independent Tibet, not China, is India’s true northern neighbor.

    “Let me get this straight,” Mr. Khandu told journalists. “China has no business telling us what to do and what not to do because it is not our next-door neighbor.”

    The Dalai Lama, for his part, has been characteristically jovial to the crowd of journalists trailing after him, expounding cheerily on subjects from quantum physics to global warming. He hardly needs to do more, Mr. Barnett said.

    “He doesn’t have to do anything except exist and be his usual beaming self to embarrass the Chinese,” he said. “He will be right on the border, he will be a complete free person, he will be only meters away from Chinese territory, but they cannot do anything about it.”
    My guess is the status quo will hold post present Dalai Lama. China hasn't been able to do anything about the present Dalai Lama since he escaped to India. Given the way they are cracking down in Xianjiang, what incentive or even chance is there for a reconciliation between the Tibetans and China. Whatever compromises existed have been made already. The Chinese appointed Panchen lama lives in India these days.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 05 Mar 18, at 17:12.

  10. #520
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    The Chinese appointed Panchen lama lives in India these days.
    Which one? The one that came in Dalai Lama's dream or the one backed by China? The former, if I recall correctly had been kidnapped by China and his whereabouts still unknown. Some say that dude is the youngest political prisoner. Cracks me up thinking how afraid the CPC is of the Tibetans in exile.

  11. #521
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Which one? The one that came in Dalai Lama's dream or the one backed by China? The former, if I recall correctly had been kidnapped by China and his whereabouts still unknown. Some say that dude is the youngest political prisoner.
    Am referring to Gyalsten Norbu, the Chinese appointee. Read this somewhere or heard it. But maybe i was mistaken. He'll never be taken seriously by exiles. Question is what about people living in Tibet.

    https://blogs.timesofindia.indiatime...-panchen-lama/

    China attempts to forcefully impose Gyaltsen Norbu as the Panchen Lama will never gain acceptance amongst the Tibetans. Even the world cannot be fooled by the reincarnation politics played by an atheist state. China should stop playing with the religious sentiments of the Tibetan people and announce the whereabouts of the Panchen Lama. After the announcement, Gedun Choekyi Nyima, the rightful 11th Panchen Lama of Tibet must be freed and enthroned at Tashi Lhunpo Monastery in Shigatse.
    Cracks me up thinking how afraid the CPC is of the Tibetans in exile.
    Is it fear or a determination to tolerate no doubt as to who is in control and in charge of Tibet. The Dalai lama is a challenge to the CCP's authority in Tibet.

    So by co-opting they try to divide the movement.

    Later attempts by the Shugden fell apart when reuters exposed them as a mere pressure group

    China co-opts a Buddhist sect in global effort to smear Dalai Lama | Reuters | Dec 21 2015

    American policy on Tibet is on again, off again. Trump pulled any funding for Tibetans recently.

    https://thediplomat.com/2017/06/did-...abandon-tibet/

    But Trump’s recent decision on Tibet turns the whole situation upside down. Does this mark a dead end of the United States’ long-held Tibet agenda? Is this change inspired by the global economic and geopolitical conditions, in which the increasing presence of China is pressuring the United States to alter its foreign policy? Or is the removal of funding just a part of Trump’s populist domestic agenda?
    Last edited by Double Edge; 05 Mar 18, at 19:04.

  12. #522
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    If you want to know what an independent Tibet under the Dali Lama would look like, look at Revolutionary Iran. The Dali Lama has done a great snow job on everyone. Everyone forgets that he was under the CIA's paid to be the figurehead in the 1960s Tibetan insurection and somehow, discovered Chinese spies in the DL's parties have a way of disappearing without even a report to the local police.

    Tibetan Buddihism is not this peaceful paradise everyone tries to paint it to be. Forget the old picture of serfdom and child human skin suits, past DLs have slaughtered whole cities who challenged their rule.

    Not that the Chinese were any better during the GPCR but no one should mistake that should the DL take over, Tibet would instantly become a paradise. Revolutionary Iran serves a great example when religious rule replaces secular rule.

  13. #523
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Am referring to Gyalsten Norbu, the Chinese appointee. Read this somewhere or heard it. But maybe i was mistaken. He'll never be taken seriously by exiles. Question is what about people living in Tibet.

    https://blogs.timesofindia.indiatime...-panchen-lama/




    Is it fear or a determination to tolerate no doubt as to who is in control and in charge of Tibet. The Dalai lama is a challenge to the CCP's authority in Tibet.

    So by co-opting they try to divide the movement.

    Later attempts by the Shugden fell apart when reuters exposed them as a mere pressure group

    China co-opts a Buddhist sect in global effort to smear Dalai Lama | Reuters | Dec 21 2015

    American policy on Tibet is on again, off again. Trump pulled any funding for Tibetans recently.

    https://thediplomat.com/2017/06/did-...abandon-tibet/
    Chinese meddling into the affairs of Tibetans in exile was exposed in 2011. The mole was identified, but the case didn't proceed further, maybe because the agencies concerned hushed up the matter.

    Karmapa's home raided in Dharamsala, Rs 1.32 crore seized

    Raids continue at Gyuto monastery

  14. #524
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    If you want to know what an independent Tibet under the Dali Lama would look like, look at Revolutionary Iran. The Dali Lama has done a great snow job on everyone. Everyone forgets that he was under the CIA's paid to be the figurehead in the 1960s Tibetan insurection and somehow, discovered Chinese spies in the DL's parties have a way of disappearing without even a report to the local police.

    Tibetan Buddihism is not this peaceful paradise everyone tries to paint it to be. Forget the old picture of serfdom and child human skin suits, past DLs have slaughtered whole cities who challenged their rule.

    Not that the Chinese were any better during the GPCR but no one should mistake that should the DL take over, Tibet would instantly become a paradise. Revolutionary Iran serves a great example when religious rule replaces secular rule.
    Wise words Colonel!

    The false assurance of an independent Tibet that the Indian establishment peddles to the Tibetan Govt. in exile is another way of keeping the CPC on their toes. The first way is the Dalai Lama himself. The military establishment thinks differently. I'm with the civilian government during peace-time. Sorry Tibetan pals, most that I can do is sympathize. India won't fight your war, unless forced to.
    Last edited by Oracle; 05 Mar 18, at 20:46.

  15. #525
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    If you want to know what an independent Tibet under the Dali Lama would look like, look at Revolutionary Iran. The Dali Lama has done a great snow job on everyone. Everyone forgets that he was under the CIA's paid to be the figurehead in the 1960s Tibetan insurection and somehow, discovered Chinese spies in the DL's parties have a way of disappearing without even a report to the local police.

    Tibetan Buddihism is not this peaceful paradise everyone tries to paint it to be. Forget the old picture of serfdom and child human skin suits, past DLs have slaughtered whole cities who challenged their rule.

    Not that the Chinese were any better during the GPCR but no one should mistake that should the DL take over, Tibet would instantly become a paradise. Revolutionary Iran serves a great example when religious rule replaces secular rule.
    I don't believe an independent Tibet will be like revolutionary Iran. How far back in time do we have to go when the Tibetans were able to defend themselves. Five centuries or ten. At some point they decided they would rather hang out in monasteries and created a priestly order that elevated the monks to the top of their society and everybody else was serfs. I suppose in some ways this is revolutionary Iran with clerics at the top, corrupt as they come calling the shots but there was never any will to export their beliefs or dominate the region not in a very long time anyway.

    All of this is beside the point. For India the idea of independent Tibet is something that existed in the past. Not something in the present or future. The reason is to do with the border dispute. The Arunachal CM isn't chest thumping but has chosen his words very carefully. He is taking a direct shot at Chinese claims to his state. Those claims are very dependent on the idea that Tibet being under China does not have the authority to cede any territory to a third party. Well, if that was the case then maybe China should have objected more strongly at the time. Fact of the matter is Arunachal was untenable for the Tibetans and as it turns out for the PLA in '62 as well. Everything flows north south, the geography of the place just doesn't allow viable control of that area from the north. Chinese claims do have military advantages in the present if it ties up any number of Indian divisions there.

    The problem with Tibet is you have a belief system that predates westphalia. The Dalai Lama is more than just a religious leader, he is seen by his people as some living god and they bear allegiance only to him and no state. In theory anyway. This is problematic in most countries but more acute for authoritarian states that brook zero dissent. The Bhutanese variant of Buddhism inherits from the Tibetan version. They also had two leaders one dalai lama like and the other a monarch. The Brits started dealing with the Wangchucks and the royals became more prominent thereafter. There have been plenty of intrigues with the Bhutanese here with loyalists murdering their equivalent of chosen dalai lama when he was young to preserve the king's authority. Having to escape to India to prevent more murders. The Bhutanese have in some way already achieved what the Chinese want to do. India wants to keep the border intact. Refusing two attempts by Chou & Deng to ratify the status quo. Analogy given was a thief breaks into your house and says he will return your wallet but wants your coat.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 06 Mar 18, at 00:07.

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