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Thread: Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge;1027490[B
    ]Brahma arguing that India should subtly question China's claims over Tibet[/B]

    Asia’s colossus threatens a tiny state | JT | Jul 04 2017



    Bhutan stopped being an Indian protectorate in 2007 when they signed a friendship treaty. Their foreign policy now is 'guided' by us.
    Sorry, but there is no Tibet card ford India toplay

    https://thewire.in/99468/india-has-n...lay-heres-why/

    "...........For the first time ever, India, in a formal document, recognised Tibet as an integral part of China. In international legal terms, it signalled the fact that the only country that had special relations with Tibet had now agreed to relinquish these relations and had done so without any reference or consultation with the Dalai Lama or with the Tibetan government. For the Tibetans, it can be said that the curtain was finally drawn on their aspirations to be an independent state or even an autonomous one.

    From this point on till June 23, 2003, India maintained that ‘Tibet is an autonomous region of China’. Even during the 1962 conflict and thereafter, India did not waver or change its position. However, when Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee of the BJP visited China in June 2003, the formulation to describe Tibet’s status with China underwent a significant change.

    The new position was that “The Indian side recognises that the Tibetan Autonomous Region is a part of the territory of the People’s Republic of China.” This position has since been reiterated in the joint statements/declarations on April 11, 2005, and November 21, 2006. Thereafter there was no mention of the status of Tibet in the January 15, 2008, Shared Vision of the 21st Century statement or in the December 16, 2010, joint communique. The above formulation was later revived after May 2014.

    India stating that it now considered Tibet Autonomous Region to be a part of the People’s Republic of China had certain distinct political connotations. Firstly, it was now understood to mean that India accepted that there was no ‘invasion’ of Tibet by China in 1950 since Tibet was a part of the People’s Republic of China that had already been established in 1949. It also means that the entry of Chinese troops into Tibet in 1950 was only a part of territorial consolidation. Secondly, China had lopped off considerable parts of erstwhile Tibetan territory and incorporated these into other provinces. Thus, by recognising Tibet Autonomous Region as opposed to Tibet earlier, India also recognised its new territorial limits and the incorporation of parts of Tibetan territory into other Chinese provinces, contrary to the position of the Dalai Lama. It may also be noted that China describes Arunachal Pradesh as “Southern Tibet.”


    In India should stop being a hypocrite and return these Tibetan lands it occupies first

    A piece of advice for India. Take care of your billion plus livining in abject filth, poverty,and misery,rebellious provincesc first before embarking on an ambitious geoplitical program.
    "............"

  2. #32
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funtastic View Post
    Sorry, but there is no Tibet card ford India toplay
    Listen to what Pramit says at 20:10 onwards

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqq_zHyQXRE

    "We have a Tibet card but we use it very lightly.."
    Last edited by Double Edge; 12 Jul 17, at 04:21.

  3. #33
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    "The timing of the flag-hoisting on Indian territory has sparked wide speculation over whether the Indian authorities instigated the political activity of Tibetan separatists to exert pressure on China.

    "Although the involvement of New Delhi remains unclear, we hope they did not send any signal of approval," it said.
    Looks like a Tibet card : D

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    In the quest for money, land and control, the CPC is committing strategic mistakes in supporting Pak, NK etc. Am I the only one to believe that? Time will tell.
    NK has been very valuable as a Chinese proxy. Kept Korea divided, fired shots at Japan, now threatening the US. Chinese get to see the reactions without paying any price.

    Same can be said about Pakistan but to a much lesser extent.

    A Chinese expert has argued that his country's troops would be entitled to enter the Indian side of Kashmir by extending the logic that has permitted Indian troops to enter an area which is disputed by China and Bhutan.
    Very interesting.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 12 Jul 17, at 05:31.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funtastic View Post
    Sorry, but there is no Tibet card ford India toplay

    https://thewire.in/99468/india-has-n...lay-heres-why/

    "...........For the first time ever, India, in a formal document, recognised Tibet as an integral part of China. In international legal terms, it signalled the fact that the only country that had special relations with Tibet had now agreed to relinquish these relations and had done so without any reference or consultation with the Dalai Lama or with the Tibetan government. For the Tibetans, it can be said that the curtain was finally drawn on their aspirations to be an independent state or even an autonomous one.

    From this point on till June 23, 2003, India maintained that ‘Tibet is an autonomous region of China’. Even during the 1962 conflict and thereafter, India did not waver or change its position. However, when Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee of the BJP visited China in June 2003, the formulation to describe Tibet’s status with China underwent a significant change.

    The new position was that “The Indian side recognises that the Tibetan Autonomous Region is a part of the territory of the People’s Republic of China.” This position has since been reiterated in the joint statements/declarations on April 11, 2005, and November 21, 2006. Thereafter there was no mention of the status of Tibet in the January 15, 2008, Shared Vision of the 21st Century statement or in the December 16, 2010, joint communique. The above formulation was later revived after May 2014.

    India stating that it now considered Tibet Autonomous Region to be a part of the People’s Republic of China had certain distinct political connotations. Firstly, it was now understood to mean that India accepted that there was no ‘invasion’ of Tibet by China in 1950 since Tibet was a part of the People’s Republic of China that had already been established in 1949. It also means that the entry of Chinese troops into Tibet in 1950 was only a part of territorial consolidation. Secondly, China had lopped off considerable parts of erstwhile Tibetan territory and incorporated these into other provinces. Thus, by recognising Tibet Autonomous Region as opposed to Tibet earlier, India also recognised its new territorial limits and the incorporation of parts of Tibetan territory into other Chinese provinces, contrary to the position of the Dalai Lama. It may also be noted that China describes Arunachal Pradesh as “Southern Tibet.”
    That is something the CPC should answer. As for general information on the internet, here it goes:

    Trump Should Read India’s Playbook for Taunting China - Foreign Policy

    Where Is India on the One China Policy? - The Diplomat

    There is no one China policy, and yes India would play the Tibet card so long as China supports rouge regimes and is an irritant in global affairs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Funtastic View Post
    In India should stop being a hypocrite and return these Tibetan lands it occupies first
    Sorry, can't do. China is welcome to try and take it back.
    Meanwhile China should stop supporting terrorists backed by Pak in killing IA soldiers and civilians. India can do the same in Xinjiang. The fact that India hasn't done so is because of our moral standing in the international community, which again doesn't mean India won't do it in future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Funtastic View Post
    A piece of advice for India. Take care of your billion plus livining in abject filth, poverty,and misery,rebellious provincesc first before embarking on an ambitious geoplitical program."............"
    Thank you for your advice. India is taking care of these things as we speak, and would do very well in the near future having kicked China off from the # 1 position in growing GDP figures.
    Last edited by Oracle; 12 Jul 17, at 07:17.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Looks like a Tibet card : D

    NK has been very valuable as a Chinese proxy. Kept Korea divided, fired shots at Japan, now threatening the US. Chinese get to see the reactions without paying any price.

    Same can be said about Pakistan but to a much lesser extent.

    Very interesting.
    China is an international thug that goes away unpunished. If China keeps being an irritant, it could lose Tibet and Xinjiang someday.

    China should stop ratcheting up 1962, remember 1967 Nathu La battle
    Excerpts:
    NEW DELHI: Notwithstanding rise in China's power and military strength, Nathu La is physiologically a weak spot for the People's Liberation Army, akin to the Sino-Vietnam border, having lost to the Indian and Vietnamese counterparts in 1967 and 1979, respectively.

    The Indian military, overcoming the loss in 1962, had dealt a severe blow to PLA in 1967 in Nathu La sector that resulted in the death of 400 Chinese soldiers, a fact neither debated in Beijing nor Delhi.
    Last edited by Oracle; 12 Jul 17, at 07:21.

  6. #36
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    World View: China and India Have Military Confrontation over Bhutan’s Doklam Plateau - Brietbart

    The military standoff on the border between Chinese and Indian troops at the border between China and Bhutan is no nearer resolution than it was last month and is becoming increasing serious, as China hardens its position and makes vitriolic threats targeting both India and Bhutan, the tiny nation between China and India.

    Chinese troops and construction workers have been constructing a road through Tibet. On June 16, a column of Chinese troops accompanied by construction vehicles and road-building equipment began moving south into the Doklam plateau, which is territory of the nation of Bhutan. Bhutan’s army attempted to block the Chinese troops from entering Bhutan’s territory, but the Chinese troops overran the Bhutan troops. Bhutan invoked a treaty with India and asked for help. India sent in its own troops, leading to a standoff with hundreds of troops on each side, with the potential of deploying thousands more troops if the standoff escalates.

    According to reports, the soldiers on each side are still unarmed, and the Chinese and Indian troops reportedly clashed by “jostling”: bumping chests, without punching or kicking, in order to force the other side backwards.

    China claims the Doklam plateau is Chinese territory and points to an 1892 treaty signed by China and colonial Britain. However, Bhutan was not a party to that treaty.

    At this point we have to point out, as an aside, that China is an international criminal, annexing the territories of other countries in the South China Sea, and building illegal military bases, in violation of international law as determined by a 2016 ruling by the United Nations Permanent Court of Arbitration (PCA) in the Hague, which declared China’s activities in the South China Sea to be illegal. China has used extortion and military force to invade and annex regions from other Central and Southeast Asian countries, including Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. China has even arrested, beaten, kidnapped and tortured its own citizens, peaceful pro-democracy protesters in Hong Kong. So China’s reference to an 1892 treaty should simply be viewed with reference to China’s past history, and treated most likely a hoax or lie or misrepresentation by self-justifying thugs. In fact, several analyses show that China’s claims are invalid.

    China is reduced to threatening both India and Bhutan with military violence. China is also trying to encourage some kind of “independence movement” in Bhutan, to sever all ties with India, and to put their faith in China.

    China is also claiming that India has no right defend Bhutan. In fact, India was asked by Bhutan to send in troops to stop the Chinese. China likes to use its vast military complex to intimidate smaller neighbors, including Philippines, Vietnam, and some Central Asian countries. They would have succeeded in invading and annexing this region of Bhutan in the same way, if India had not come to Bhutan’s aid.

    Both India’s prime minister Narendra Modi and China’s president Xi Jinping attended the G20 summit in Hamburg, and that would have been a good place for Modi and Xi to have a meeting and try to resolve the situation diplomatically. However, China rejected the meeting because “the atmosphere is not right,” presumably meaning that China wants to wait for some kind of military victory. Global Times (Beijing) and India Times and Perspective (India) and Bhutan News Service (1-Jan-2013)

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    China is an international thug that goes away unpunished. If China keeps being an irritant, it could lose Tibet and Xinjiang someday.

    China is only continuing the tradition displayed by other world powers and its presence is welcomed by the majority of Asians in SE Asia who are more than willing to see the U.S. who is the biggest destabiliser in the region since ww2 to bugger off.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    China is an international thug that goes away unpunished. If China keeps being an irritant, it could lose Tibet and Xinjiang someday.

    China should stop ratcheting up 1962, remember 1967 Nathu La battle
    Excerpts:
    Well things must have giien worse for India since then as it was not able to garner enough soilders/security personal for the 2010 commonwealth games. As a consequence many of the public were unable to view the street events of Indias coming out show to the world.

  9. #39
    Contributor anil's Avatar
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    Tibet will be a theater in the coming wars. The Han Chinese understand this and accept it.

    1962 was a boo boo. The surprise march was a misstep without any real objective and so they quickly retreated but this foolish step by the communits changed the course of history. After 62, China became an enemy and India finally trained it's army for the Himalayan terrain. I think it took several decades after 1962 for the Indian govt to certify it's soldiers and hardware as terrain ready and finally send them back to the Indo-China border. Btw, most people in India don't know this - the Indo-China border remained unguarded after 62 for 15-20 years I think. As you can imagine, no indian leader in that time period ever imagined a chinese attack.

  10. #40
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    ... having kicked China off from the # 1 position in growing GDP figures.
    Growing an economy isn't like growing an erection.


    According to the IMF WEO database, Kuwait grew 82.8% in real terms in 1992. Libya grew 106.5% in 2012.
    Equatorial Guinea grew 33% in 1992, 64.6% in 1996, 66.3% in 2001, 95.3% in 2000, and 147.7% in 1997. That’s a decade long average of 50.1%, 1992-2001.
    See: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/.../weoselgr.aspx

  11. #41
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funtastic View Post
    China is only continuing the tradition displayed by other world powers and its presence is welcomed by the majority of Asians in SE Asia who are more than willing to see the U.S. who is the biggest destabiliser in the region since ww2 to bugger off.

    How long have you been visiting South-east Asia, and discussing China with the people who live there?
    The reason I ask is that your comment is the complete opposite of what I've been hearing over the past 35+ years.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by anil View Post
    Tibet will be a theater in the coming wars. The Han Chinese understand this and accept it.

    1962 was a boo boo. The surprise march was a misstep without any real objective and so they quickly retreated but this foolish step by the communits changed the course of history. After 62, China became an enemy and India finally trained it's army for the Himalayan terrain. I think it took several decades after 1962 for the Indian govt to certify it's soldiers and hardware as terrain ready and finally send them back to the Indo-China border. Btw, most people in India don't know this - the Indo-China border remained unguarded after 62 for 15-20 years I think. As you can imagine, no indian leader in that time period ever imagined a chinese attack.
    Because India will not release the full Henderson Brooks report on the Sino Indian war, suggests that problems within the Indian military have yet to be addressed.

    Old time members such as Big Fella, and Officer of Engineers dont seem to be around much these days but they might remember an article plublished in the "Diplomat" I think several years ago.In the article an Australian naval officer on an exchange program with the Indian Navy was less than complimentary of the Indian frigate he was serving on. He said it was poorly maintained and there was a disconnect between the officers and the rest of the crew.
    I would not be surprised if the army was much of the same.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Growing an economy isn't like growing an erection.


    According to the IMF WEO database, Kuwait grew 82.8% in real terms in 1992. Libya grew 106.5% in 2012.
    Equatorial Guinea grew 33% in 1992, 64.6% in 1996, 66.3% in 2001, 95.3% in 2000, and 147.7% in 1997. That’s a decade long average of 50.1%, 1992-2001.
    See: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/.../weoselgr.aspx

    I wish the forum kept a like button

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    How long have you been visiting South-east Asia, and discussing China with the people who live there?
    The reason I ask is that your comment is the complete opposite of what I've been hearing over the past 35+ years.

    Me bad.I was thinking of it in terms of an economic grouping such as Asean+3

    I have been a resident of Singapore for nearly 50yrs and have meet quite a few Thai, Vietnamese,Cambodian and Indonesian professionals/businessman that had Chinese ancestry dating back to more than a century earlier. Since retirement, My Tahitian wife and I divide our time between Australia and Nz to visit grand children, and Tahiti. I only spend a few weeks annually in Singapore now.

    I have lurked around this forum for a number of years.Although I only have a basic understanding of economics, I like reading and search for your posts after signing on.I have often wondered what your ethnic background was.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funtastic View Post
    China is only continuing the tradition displayed by other world powers and its presence is welcomed by the majority of Asians in SE Asia who are more than willing to see the U.S. who is the biggest destabiliser in the region since ww2 to bugger off.
    When did the US grab/steal/occupy sovereign nation's lands?

    World sees China as global power, but for India US rules: Survey, dig deeper.

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