Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

[Oracle]

Maybe you will be the one that is 'crying a river, "if we change our mind and divert water from the Brahmaputra for our south north project.

"We"?

Weren't you Singaporean some time back? Hahahahahahaha!

Current affairs? US, Japs, India, EU, Aus? Heard of Tibet(?), independent Tibet? Geo-politics is changing faster than anything right now. I hope China finds itself in the right side of history, because whatever the CPC are, they are not suicidal, and mostly it's the innocent people who have to pay up.

[Oracle]

Can ignore the Chinese but what about local opposition to dams







Damming Northeast India
Juggernaut of hydropower projects threatens social and environmental security of region

‘Green’ development and democracy? Hydropower in Northeast India | Entitle Blog | Aug 16 2016


Why Building India’s Largest Dam Is Destroying The Idu Mishmi Tribe Of Arunachal Pradesh | NE Buzz | Aug 14 2015




The opposition is primarily against big dams not all dams. They propose small dams instead



And how efficient is that going to be. It will serve local needs but be unable to generate much more s it won't be an income earner like the ones in Bhutan

Lot more than 4 dams here

By 2010 Arunachal Pradesh had awarded contracts for construction of 130 large hydropower projects on all of its rivers, mostly to private companies. The figure has risen to around 170 since then


Land is politicised

Water is politicised

Development is politicised

Everybody is finger pointing

Welcome to the real world ☹

Those are disputable sources. And even if they are not, NGOs have been trying to block development in India for a long time now. I hope you remember the Kalpakkam nuke dispute.

Do dams disturb the ecology? Yes it does.

Will it displace people living in the lower areas? Yes. No, if they have developed the ability to swim like ducks when floodgates are opened.

Does it have anything to do with loss of heritage? No. The government is not testing nukes out there. The people will be moved to another place and they can continue their semi-nomadic lifestyle in the new land. Sustainable agriculture is about crop rotation, animal grazing at different pastures which makes the land more fertile.

Is there a threat to lives and properties? Yes, if they continue to live downstream and not take up the government's offer.

Imbalance to water resource distribution? No. Dams do not change the course of a river. Reservoirs created while constructing dams prevents floods and the stored water is used for irrigation, industrial use, and by the local population for their daily use. During monsoon it would help to prevent floods, while during winter when there is scarcity of water, the water stored would be released for use. It would generate power too.

Weapon of mass destruction? Ridiculous.

Methane gas emission and global warming? It does affect bio activities in water bodies, but it has not been studied to an extent that building dams can be compared to nuke testing. In due course of time, the biological activities stabilize and reach their normal levels. E.g., Japan after WWII. Should we ban poultry and live-stock farming because of methane gas emissions? Humans fart, so should we pay a fine everytime we do that? As about global warming - what we need to understand is the whole course of the river is not disturbed, only a certain place for 1 dam. Nature heals itself in time.

National security - Water as a resource is a matter of National security. Dams will provide the much needed stability for Agriculture, that loses tens of millions of dollars every year in Assam alone. Some people might like to light up their homes with Kerosene, doesn't mean others should be deprived of electicity. For every 100 against the project which are funded by shady sources, lakhs benefit. And, bridges, dams, embankments in modern India are built by highly capable people with modern technology after feasibility studies. Environmental impact assesment is done, before any tender is notified.

And DE, I have not even touched local politics, which is worse than you can imagine. There were some in the 90s, when militancy was at its peak, who did not want tourists to visit saying it would change their heritage and way of life. As of now, top cadres of militant groups are in jail, and the newer generation wants tourists and are promoting eco-village tourism on Facebook. It's about dirty politics more than whatever reasons NGOs and media put up for us to see.

[Oracle]

Can ignore the Chinese but what about local opposition to dams

I forgot to reply this point. You know well about politics in India. At the local level, it is dirtier. Opposition is always trying to find a way to block the Government from developmental works. Those people who are in the pics are very simple people who are easily manipulated. They live in places where there is no power, no internet, no cellphone signal, no health facilities, probably a run-down school with 1 teacher who is absent most of the time, no industry and the roads that lead to those villages are mud roads that they themselves build a long time ago to sell their stuff in bigger town markets. Have you ever thought about how they know terms like ecology, methane and global warming? It's fairly clear isn't it. I am at fault too. Guys like me who come out of those remote places never go back. I could have clarified their doubts and they would have listened. Bangalore has a 100 replacements for me if I leave the job, the place I left doesn't.

Btw, small dams will not be effective on a river like the Brahmaputra, you have replied it yourself. And considering the number of small dams that has to be built instead of a big one, the ecology gets disturbed at many places. Not a good idea from an environment POV. Many designs for the many small dams, so workload increases. Feasibility studies for each has to be done. More time & manpower needed. Summation of costs goes extremely high.

[Oracle]

That's one way to tackle the growing trade imbalance between the two countries, it also influences China's policy towards India

Led by Chinese, nearly 600 companies line up $85 billion investments in India | ET | Oct 16 2017

This is good. If India and China can find a common cause to live side by side without issues that erupt every year, it will benefit the people of both the countries. Then, it will take some years to bridge the trust deficit. I am also in favor of people to people contact. Chinese people are not brianwashed in madrassahs, they should be given a tourist visa on arrival, barring well for the NE states.

#1. Visa on arrival for tourists are given to people from - Finland, Japan, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Singapore, Cambodia, Vietnam, Philippines, Laos, Indonesia, Myanmar.

#2. The people from the top 10 countries using a tourist visa to visit India are - Bangladesh, US, UK, Canada, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Australia, Germany, China, France, Russia, Japan.

Cambodia, Laos, Indonesia? Burma? There is hardly any border fencing and people who live in those areas cross over without any hitch, why would they need to apply for a visa. The donkeys a.k.a the bureaucrats needs to know that countries with money should be the first on the list for visa on arrival. Is this rocket science for them to understand.

Bangladesh in #2, lol. Many Indians think they jump over the fence and cross into India. The poor do. But many use the legal route, the well off ones. I guess it's mostly for medical tourism.

[Double Edge]

Bangladesh in #2, lol. Many Indians think they jump over the fence and cross into India. The poor do. But many use the legal route, the well off ones. I guess it's mostly for medical tourism.

Length of India China border - 4057 km

Length of India Bangladesh border - 4096 km

Effectively impossible to police and we can't shoot them

[Double Edge]

I forgot one key point. Rivers that originate in Tibet are glacier fed, and also there is subsequent amount of rainfall on China's side of the boundary too. Summer starts, and the glaciers start to melt, feeding the mighty Brahmaputra. Then comes monsoon, which is extra water. For centuries silt has not been dredged, so the river cannot hold the monsoon water and overflows its banks, thereby flooding villages causing loss of human life, death of livestocks, crops get inundated and wasted.

Now, when China shares its hydrological data with Bangladesh, it gives the authorities in Bangladesh enough time to plan. By the time the Brahmaputra enters India and traverses along its course, depending on the rainfall, it either slows down or flows above the danger mark, thus again helping Bangladesh, this time, to prepare in the shortest time possible. Bangladesh gets enough time for preparation, while India gets less time.

Monitoring stations on the tip of Arunchal will help India, but not to the extent of China sharing hydrological data from their side of the border. You do know how severe monsoon is in the NE, so China has to open its floodgates and let excess water go, or the dam bursts. Without getting hydrological data from China, or how much water their dams would be releasing, India walks blind and does whatever it can to minimize casulties.

So DE, observers are right that China uses this kind of tricks to coerce Nations they do not get alongwith. India can be better prepared by leveraging the better use of technology and satellite data. Feed legacy rainfall data for the last 50 years and analyze it. This India can do and be better prepared.

As about dams, China can go cry a river, but we are going ahead with building as many as 4 in Arunachal Pradesh alone. Maybe more.

Look at this map again



many tributaries feed the Brahmaputra, they pick up strength from the mountains on our side

80% of the Brahamputra is rain fed from our side, the chinese part with glaciers is just 20%

It's still not clear to me why China's hydrological data is so important.

If there is unseasonal melt before the monsoons maybe then Chinese data can help but i can't see what use it is after the monsoons kick in

Here is another



See that bit that comes in from China ? looks pretty tiny doesn't it. One little spur and such a big deal is made out of it. If ever there is a flood, people call it a 'China flood'. It was caused by Chinese actions upstream.

Does not matter whether it is true or not but the locals believe China is responsible for every flood and its an entrenched belief (!)

Now see the feeding coming in from every single district from Arunachal

Those tributaries make for a pretty awesome river in your state

[Funtastic]

"We"?

Weren't you Singaporean some time back? Hahahahahahaha!

Current affairs? US, Japs, India, EU, Aus? Heard of Tibet(?), independent Tibet? Geo-politics is changing faster than anything right now. I hope China finds itself in the right side of history, because whatever the CPC are, they are not suicidal, and mostly it's the innocent people who have to pay up.

I am a Singaporean of Chinese heritage. Better to remember ones heritage than becoming an "Uncle Tom."

Current affairs is changing so fast that in the next 2 to 3 decades the U.S. would have lost its outright supremacy with the world becoming more multilateral.Futhermore she has not won a war against a significant power since WW2. Japan is nothing more than a yes man to the U.S. She has peaked and going backwards and is more disliked in S E Asia for historical reasons.
India? can become a significant economic force, but everything has to line up for her, otherwise she just becomes another country thats failed to breakthrough the middle income barrier. Militarily, her defence industry cant even meet her needs and its not for the want of trying. and with China controlling the flow of water in the Brahmaputra, India can be seriously inconvenienced E.U. outside her own region will be of any insignifigance
Tibet independent? Roll eyes and ROFL

[Oracle]

I am a Singaporean of Chinese heritage. Better to remember ones heritage than becoming an Uncle Tom.

It's never was about heritage. You are Chinese, not Singaporean. You got caught pants down. And as about Uncle Tom, had it not been for Bill Clinton who lied and lobbied for China's entry in WTO, China still would be a land of peasants producing and selling opium to the world.

Current affairs is changing so fast that in the next 2 to 3 decades the U.S. would have lost its outright supremacy with the world becoming more multilateral.Futhermore she has not won a war against a significant power since WW2. Japan is nothing more than a yes man to the U.S. She has peaked and going backwards and is more disliked in S E Asia for historical reasons.
India? can become a significant economic force, but everything has to line up for her, otherwise she just becomes another country thats failed to breakthrough the middle income barrier. Militarily, her defence industry cant even meet her needs and its not for the want of trying. and with China controlling the flow of water in the Brahmaputra, India can be seriously inconvenienced E.U. outside her own region will be of any insignifigance
Tibet independent? Roll eyes and ROFL

I have never come across such astute geo-strategic observations. Xi's little red book? Japanese Navy can sunk the PLAN in a matter of days if a war breaks out. Nobody told you that. I am not going to go into your stupid claims, since you show up from time to time in the rear-end of threads trying to earn your 50 cents.

[Officer of Engineers]

It's never was about heritage. You are Chinese, not Singaporean. You got caught pants down. And as about Uncle Tom, had it not been for Bill Clinton who lied and lobbied for China's entry in WTO, China still would be a land of peasants producing and selling opium to the world.

Bill Clinton had nothing to do with it. It was Deng Xia Peng's bargin basement prices response to the Tienamen Square World Boycotts that drove China's economic and the world's economic explosion. The result was Walmart prices that simply cannot be matched elsewhere at the time.

In fact, getting China into the WTO was a way to control China's economic explosion. China had to obey Intentional Economic Legalities, such as investment protection and Intellectual Properties. Not perfectly but the result would have been worst without China in the WTO.

I have never come across such astute geo-strategic observations. Xi's little red book? Japanese Navy can sunk the PLAN in a matter of days if a war breaks out. Nobody told you that. I am not going to go into your stupid claims, since you show up from time to time in the rear-end of threads trying to earn your 50 cents.

If the Chinese Navy sticks to brown water operations, then I seriously doubt the Japanese Navy would dare to challenge Chinese near shore military might.

Once you add in the shore batteries, the odds shift big time for the Chinese.

[Oracle]

Look at this map again



many tributaries feed the Brahmaputra, they pick up strength from the mountains on our side

80% of the Brahamputra is rain fed from our side, the chinese part with glaciers is just 20%

It's still not clear to me why China's hydrological data is so important.

If there is unseasonal melt before the monsoons maybe then Chinese data can help but i can't see what use it is after the monsoons kick in

Here is another



See that bit that comes in from China ? looks pretty tiny doesn't it. One little spur and such a big deal is made out of it. If ever there is a flood, people call it a 'China flood'. It was caused by Chinese actions upstream.

Does not matter whether it is true or not but the locals believe China is responsible for every flood and its an entrenched belief (!)

Now see the feeding coming in from every single district from Arunachal

Those tributaries make for a pretty awesome river in your state

No, it picks up speed from Tibet. Forget Brahmaputra, how does rain water find its course? Through downward slopes. Winter is time when water is scarce. Rain falls on the Chinese side. Rivers get swollen during monsoon and picks up speed from the Chinese side, China not sharing data makes it worse.

Hydrology data sharing is from May-15 to Oct-15 every year. What does this timeframe tell you?

Why do you think China occupied Tibet? Because of historical claims? NO. It occupied Tibet because it is the largest source of freshwater in the world which has sustained 2 large countries with enormous populations for 1000s of years, the same 2 countries which had a GDP share of 60% of the world till the early 1800s.

[Officer of Engineers]

It's still not clear to me why China's hydrological data is so important.

I, too, am at a loss why Chinese data is so important. India has real time weather satellites watching the area. They can measure rainfall as well as temperatures real time. Measuring the glacier is as simple as measuring the white areas. For all intents and purposes, India already have the data. They just have to put it together.

Unless they want the Chinese to do it for them for free.

[Oracle]

Bill Clinton had nothing to do with it. It was Deng Xia Peng's bargin basement prices response to the Tienamen Square World Boycotts that drove China's economic and the world's economic explosion. The result was Walmart prices that simply cannot be matched elsewhere at the time.

Sir, I was talking about a lecture from Bill that talked amongst other things how bringing China into the WTO is good for the world and for the US. US industry now knows that it was a lie and how it led to the decline of American manufacturing. We can argue about competitiveness, but we should also not forget the shady Chinese goverment policies on how they keep prices low, IP theft, currency manipulation etc. The fact is every damn country which has grown economically is because of the US. From Japan, to EU, to China and India.

And in many ways, it was not the point either. My point to Chinese fanboys was to show them how even now Chinese leadership loses sleep when Trumph sneezes trade with China.

And it's good to see you here and your posts. I'd like more of them, but I also know about your condition. So thank you for showing up and contributing.

In fact, getting China into the WTO was a way to control China's economic explosion. China had to obey Intentional Economic Legalities, such as investment protection and Intellectual Properties. Not perfectly but the result would have been worst without China in the WTO.

Did not get the bold part.

As about China not in the WTO, they use trade as an economic tool to earn money from open democratic countries, while they block certain industries from the same countries in China.

If the Chinese Navy sticks to brown water operations, then I seriously doubt the Japanese Navy would dare to challenge Chinese near shore military might.

Once you add in the shore batteries, the odds shift big time for the Chinese.

Blue water navy is what the Chinese think they have. Apart from that this is why US-Japan-India navies is sticking together with exercises. Some people think China is invincible, some Pakistanis also have the same thinking. This is what is leading regional powers tying up with the Americans more and more. Some people don't even understand that China has only 2 allies, Pak and NK, and none (not even Russia) will be able to help them when Chinese ships are sunk. The problem with China is it grew too rapidly, has too much money on its hands and with it they think they can buy influence. The world doesn't work this way, and China is finding it out from incidents such as Doklam.

[Oracle]

I, too, am at a loss why Chinese data is so important. India has real time weather satellites watching the area. They can measure rainfall as well as temperatures real time. Measuring the glacier is as simple as measuring the white areas.

I am on the verge of a nervous breakdown explaining this issue.

#1. Not sharing hydrology data was a coercive tactive because of the Doklam issue this year. Glaciers are on the Chinese side.
#2. I am all for building monitoring stations on the Indian side of the border, apart from the satellites you mentioned.
#3. Data sharing has been ongoing for a decade.
#4. It is important in the sense that (China supplied data) downstream effects can be analysed much before the rain fed rivers flood India. Lives and livestock can be saved. Crops such as rice will get washed away in any case. This is why there are plans to build dams as also to generate power.

#5. Do we need China's help in this matter? Help is appreciated, but we should do it on our own. India should not complain about the same issue year after year.

For all intents and purposes, India already have the data. They just have to put it together.

Unless they want the Chinese to do it for them for free.

Might be the case. I believe the data we have is on paper, not in a database. How do we analyze say 50 year data with naked eyes. NE India has been neglected by the Central government for decades. They have woken up now because of Doklam.

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir, I was talking about a lecture from Bill that talked amongst other things how bringing China into the WTO is good for the world and for the US.

Which again is the result of Deng Xia Peng's bargin basement prices after Tiennamen Square. China was on the world wide boycott list as a result of Tiennamen Square. The entire Western World started cancelling all their contracts with China. What Deng did was to offer bargin basement prices to keep those contracts. Companies started to lobby their respective governments to break the boycott so they can take advantage of those terms. Among the leaders to break the boycott was Japan. This was all done BEFORE Bill Clinton's lobby to the WTO.

US industry now knows that it was a lie and how it led to the decline of American manufacturing.

The numbers say otherwise. American manufacturing is growing and growing strong. However, manufacturing jobs are declining simply because of automation. The products being produced can no longer be made by human hands and must be performed by precise instruments.

The jobs the Chinese ... and the Mexicans have will disappear once automation becomes cheaper than their labour.

We can argue about competitiveness, but we should also not forget the shady Chinese goverment policies on how they keep prices low, IP theft, currency manipulation etc. The fact is every damn country which has grown economically is because of the US. From Japan, to EU, to China and India.

Again, bargin basement prices, especially currency manipulation. You don't understand what that manipulation means. It means that if no manipulation, the price of the product should be higher but the Chinese are essentially trying to keep the prices low, offerring to sell at pennies on the dollar.

As for IP theft, that is nothing new and the Chinese actually sucked at it. Taiwan was a bigger thief with the APPLE II. Back then, we called it Clones and APPLE could do nothing to stop Taiwan from flooding the US with APPLE II Clones.

And INTEL and MICROSOFT effectively destroyed IBM's IP claim with the introduction of the 80286 and MS-DOS.

What all this essentially means is that the likes of APPLE and IBM wanted to keep prices high to maintain a decent profit margin. Deng just wanted survival wages to keep the contracts. I remember that IBM PCs were 20-30% more expensive the exact same 286 machine running MS-DOS doing the exact same Lotus-123 spreadsheets and Wordperfect documents.

Did not get the bold part.

The bold part is to show that China was poised to repeat APPLE II-Taiwan and the IBM-INTEL/MICROSOFT debacle. Only entry into the WTO controlled it, though not stopped it.

As about China not in the WTO, they use trade as an economic tool to earn money from open democratic countries, while they block certain industries from the same countries in China.

I can't remember what those industries are but the point here is that you should examine the subjects more closely. Not everything is as simple as it seems.

China's economy basically collapsed after Tiennamen with the world wide boycott. It was Deng's bargin basement prices that reversed it. I ain't kidding when I said that Deng dragged China by the tits from the 19th Century into the 20th Century and then kick her ass into the 21st Century, all the while kicking and screaming. Deng is dead but the kicking and screaming haven't stopped.

Blue water navy is what the Chinese think they have. Apart from that this is why US-***-India navies is sticking together with exercises. Some people think China is invincible, some Pakistanis also have the same thinking. This is what is leading regional powers tying up with the Americans more and more. Some people don't even understand that China has only 2 allies, Pak and NK, and none (not even Russia) will be able to help them when Chinese ships are sunk. The problem with China is it grew too rapidly, has too much money on its hands and with it they think they can buy influence. The world doesn't work this way, and China is finding it out from incidents such as Doklam.

The Chinese do have a blue water navy. Just not a very powerful one.

[Officer of Engineers]

I am on the verge of a nervous breakdown explaining this issue.

Calm down. You will never get through a marriage if an internet debate is causing you stress.

#1. Not sharing hydrology data was a coercive tactive because of the Doklam issue this year. Glaciers are on the Chinese side.
#2. I am all for building monitoring stations on the Indian side of the border, apart from the satellites you mentioned.
#3. Data sharing has been ongoing for a decade.
#4. It is important in the sense that (China supplied data) downstream effects can be analysed much before the rain fed rivers flood India. Lives and livestock can be saved. Crops such as rice will get washed away in any case. This is why there are plans to build dams as also to generate power.

#5. Do we need China's help in this matter? Help is appreciated, but we should do it on our own. India should not complain about the same issue year after year.

What you're telling me here is that you're waiting for the Chinese to do the work for you. You get the exact same data the Chinese get at precisely the same time (satellite imaging). They have the advantage of ground station measuring but for what you're suggesting, satellite measurements would do just fine for disaster prevention.

So, you're waiting for the Chinese to tell you that their rivers are x meters height and would expect a difference of y (either rise or fall) meters in the next day/week/month.

In other words, you're waiting for the Chinese to do the work for you when you can clearly see how much water is coming down from the north and when it would hit the south.

India sent a probe to Mars to monitor that planet's weather. There is absolutely no excuse to blame the Chinese for not sharing their work.