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Thread: Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

  1. #331
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    Damn, I have to say this, Manipur's weed is good. Damn good!

  2. #332
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    While you were away....

    China : WE ARE READY FOR WAR

    India : nothing doing

    China : oh! lets sit down and chat then

    Been on their best behaviour ever since

    Why ? don't know. But the Nork nuke test a week later. China must have known something was up. Did they pull the plug as they have a bigger headache looming

    How long for ? don't know

    We did a China on China, this i get
    Last edited by Double Edge; 07 Sep 17, at 21:11.

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    While you were away....

    China : WE ARE READY FOR WAR

    India : nothing doing

    China : oh! lets sit down and chat then

    Been on their best behaviour ever since

    Why ? don't know. But the Nork nuke test a week later. China must have known something was up. Did they pull the plug as they have a bigger headache looming

    How long for ? don't know

    We did a China on China, this i get
    First off, China didn't share hydrology data this year, I got this confirmed from a friend who works in the secretariat. Heavy monsoon, really heavy rains. My village got cut off for 8 days. No power, no telecommunication services, no internet, even no landline. Landslides everywhere. Railway tracks got washed away, roads got blocked. 8 days went by without knowing what's happening worldwide. This is by far my worst experience after the 2005 Mumbai floods in which I got caught. Came back to Bangalore to an inbox full of emails. Feels good to be back into the fold of civilization. ;-)

    So India stared down China and the house lizard understood it's wise not to start a fight and then lose, and go for a mutual withdrawal. Good. Now it's time to arm Vietnam.

    I saw Trumphs' statement about Af-Pak where he lambasted Pak. Rhymes with our national security. And what the hell happened at BRICS summit. China accepted to name LeT and JeM. WTF?

    Ofcourse China knew about NKs' nuke test. China was forced to join NPT after the US found out about Chinas' nuke proliferation to Pak, and also NK missile technology transfer to Pak in return for nuke technology. China has got only 2 allies. NK and Pak. And all three make a trio of rouge countries. As soon as the NK issue gets resolved, China would be back to it's salami slicing policy.

  4. #334
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    First off, China didn't share hydrology data this year, I got this confirmed from a friend who works in the secretariat. Heavy monsoon, really heavy rains. My village got cut off for 8 days. No power, no telecommunication services, no internet, even no landline. Landslides everywhere. Railway tracks got washed away, roads got blocked. 8 days went by without knowing what's happening worldwide. This is by far my worst experience after the 2005 Mumbai floods in which I got caught. Came back to Bangalore to an inbox full of emails. Feels good to be back into the fold of civilization. ;-)
    There were floods all over India. The brahma putra is 80% rain fed ie our side of the border, lots of rain without dams means floods. Have you seen cybersurg's latest video btw. How much water from Tibet actually comes into India in the first place

    Why is that hydrological data so important, if the rain adds up only inside our border

    I saw Trumphs' statement about Af-Pak where he lambasted Pak. Rhymes with our national security. And what the hell happened at BRICS summit. China accepted to name LeT and JeM. WTF?
    Same was said at HoA in Amritsar and Pakistan agreed to it. Now its something big because it was repeated at Brics but China refused the year before in Goa. It's media hype

    Ofcourse China knew about NKs' nuke test. China was forced to join NPT after the US found out about Chinas' nuke proliferation to Pak, and also NK missile technology transfer to Pak in return for nuke technology. China has got only 2 allies. NK and Pak. And all three make a trio of rouge countries. As soon as the NK issue gets resolved, China would be back to it's salami slicing policy.
    Back to the usual is the expectation

  5. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    There were floods all over India. The brahma putra is 80% rain fed ie our side of the border, lots of rain without dams means floods. Have you seen cybersurg's latest video btw. How much water from Tibet actually comes into India in the first place

    Why is that hydrological data so important, if the rain adds up only inside our border
    No, I haven't seen Shiv's video. I was living a nomadic life till last week. Will watch it.

    Rain adds up on both sides of the border. When monsoon starts, the state governments have dedicated teams to study the amount of rainfall on our side. India and China have a pact on sharing hydrology data. Hydrology data is important because State governments can then make preparations for disaster relief. China not sharing this data means that China had to open their dams to let go excess water or their dams would have collapsed. China didn't have the decency to intimate India, which is why it caught the state administration off-guard and resulted in many deaths.

    Hydrology data is also important to study climate change, rainfall patterns, impact on agriculture etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Same was said at HoA in Amritsar and Pakistan agreed to it. Now its something big because it was repeated at Brics but China refused the year before in Goa. It's media hype
    But why did China agree to name Pak based groups, that too groups that focusses on India? ETIM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Back to the usual is the expectation
    70K SSB have been assigned to the border areas with China alongwith ITBP.

  6. #336
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Theories as to why this affair began

    - Bhutan has been softened and ready to be pushed towards a deal

    - Pak influence suggesting giving a push an India will fall over

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    As soon as the NK issue gets resolved, China would be back to it's salami slicing policy.
    Good, that means we'll have a couple of quiet years : )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Theories as to why this affair began

    - Bhutan has been softened and ready to be pushed towards a deal

    - Pak influence suggesting giving a push an India will fall over
    ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Good, that means we'll have a couple of quiet years : )
    Maybe not. The first of the Scorpene class of submarines will be operational this month. Atleast the Navy is adding teeth. AFAIK, 12 new conventional submarines, and 6 nuclear SSBN will be added. Arihant already deployed. Capacity building is a continous process in peace time.

    Rap on the knuckles by the GoI.

    Rap on the knuckles by the CPC.

  10. #340
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    ??
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4CPflLFLpA&t=11m36s

    former deputy NSA <shrug>


    Maybe not. The first of the Scorpene class of submarines will be operational this month. Atleast the Navy is adding teeth. AFAIK, 12 new conventional submarines, and 6 nuclear SSBN will be added. Arihant already deployed. Capacity building is a continous process in peace time.
    meaning they will be busy with whatever Kim throws up

    As a result of Kim's tests, its only a matter of time the Paks will have boosted fission or even fusion weapons. Tested and working (!)
    Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Sep 17, at 08:11.

  11. #341
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    History

    How the US viewed the 1967 Sikkim skirmishes between India and China | The Print | 13 September, 2017

    What Were China's Objectives in the Doklam Dispute? | RAND | Sept 8 2017

    The crisis at Doklam is over for now, but the episode's true impact will only unfold in the weeks and months to come. From a U.S. perspective, the most important signs to look for are any concessions by the involved parties to China. This could involve

    - Bhutan quietly acceding to Beijing's claims on the disputed Jakarlung and Pasamlung territories, which are less strategically threatening to India.

    - New Delhi might subtly dial back its support for the Tibetan exile community.

    - Or perhaps Vietnam will find India less responsive to future requests for economic or security engagement.

    Any such development might indicate that Beijing had not been stopped cold in the Himalayas, but had leveraged this conflict to its advantage.
    Don't see how Bhutan will accede to the claim as china's deal is the east for the north. He is implying Bhutan will cede the north and keep the east to satisfy india
    Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Sep 17, at 18:47.

  12. #342
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Rap on the knuckles by the GoI.

    Rap on the knuckles by the CPC.
    Does this mean the border incursions stop ? thought they were the new normal according to the general and our reaction would be strong

  13. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Could be. I am open to all opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    meaning they will be busy with whatever Kim throws up

    As a result of Kim's tests, its only a matter of time the Paks will have boosted fission or even fusion weapons. Tested and working (!)
    That's a worry, isn't it. Rouge countries having nukes. Btw, I read sometime back that Pak conducted it's first nuke test at Lop Nur in 1968 or 1978. Can't recall the year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    History

    How the US viewed the 1967 Sikkim skirmishes between India and China | The Print | 13 September, 2017

    What Were China's Objectives in the Doklam Dispute? | RAND | Sept 8 2017

    Don't see how Bhutan will accede to the claim as china's deal is the east for the north. He is implying Bhutan will cede the north and keep the east to satisfy india
    Good find.

    Time will tell the outcome of this stand-off, but China ain't getting Doklam. And if India pulls back from the security engagement with Vietnam, it would be a poor strategic choice. The rand article has some flaws. One, the 1962 war was not only because of India sheltering the Dalai Lama, but also because of Nehrus' forward policy without building a robust defence. Two, 1962 is not the only year when India and China went to war. There was a war in 1967 too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Does this mean the border incursions stop ? thought they were the new normal according to the general and our reaction would be strong
    No. The rap was for being a loudmouth. The IA chiefs' job is not to give statements to the media, but to prepare his men and arsenal for war.

  14. #344
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    That's a worry, isn't it. Rogue countries having nukes. Btw, I read sometime back that Pak conducted it's first nuke test at Lop Nur in 1968 or 1978. Can't recall the year.
    Lop Nor test for the Paks was 1990. It didn't cause a reaction in India. What pre-empted india was Clinton extending the NPT into perpetuity in 1995. Still have to get through Narasimha's book to understand the thinking after that Lop Nor test. I expect the thinking will be similar this time as well. Absent some additional catalyst, India isn't going to do a H test.

    China realised it had two rivals (actually 3). Then set about suitably assisting other countries to act as foils. NK towards Japan. Pakistan towards India. Cambodia towards Vietnam.

    The Vietnamese decided they weren't going to have a rogue regime next door and invaded and then deposed the Khmer Rouge. They fought the KR in the country for many years and won. The Khmer Rouge never returned. At the time India voted at the UN in support of Vietnam against the US, China and many others. Does anybody really wish the khmer rouge were still in power today ? Does the world need another dsyfunctional regime like NK. Of course not, the Vietnamese were right, they paid a high price but the reality is they are better off today as a result.

    But two out of three ain't bad. The Paks helped the Norks with enrichment via AQ Khan and got missile tech. China signs NPT in 1992 and CTBT in 2004, they say we didn't do anything. heh yeah. The damage is already done. This is nothing new, similar pattern of proliferation went on during the cold war for the same balancing reasons.

    All depends on how the US plays this, will the alliance hold and whether China via proxy is able to damage that alliance beyond repair. If so, Japan, SK & Taiwan will go nuclear and rebalance any advantage China had.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 15 Sep 17, at 13:19.

  15. #345
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    He's a prof and we're not exactly going to be inviting a hawk

    That 19th congress is yet to happen

    Beijing must moderate its behaviour, says Chinese scholar | Tribune India | Sept 15 2017

    Tribune News Service
    Pune, September 15

    Noted Chinese scholar Shen Dingli has questioned his government’s attitude towards two hot topics that have created bad blood with India.

    The need for Beijing to “moderate its behavior” also applies to its dispute with the Philippines in South China Sea, the professor from a prestigious Shanghai-based university observed at the two-day Pune Dialogue on National Security that began here on Friday.

    We are rich and strong and so we have to do something. But does it mean creating trouble for others?” asked Prof Shen while pointing out that Beijing should have handled more adroitly China’s standoff at Doklam and its unilateral push to the China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC).

    “How would China react if a third party starts building infrastructure in Senkaku islands (disputed between Japan and China)? No third party should participate in a dispute. Why did we fail to ask India? Why did China talk only to Pakistan? India may not succeed in militarily winning back the disputed area but it has not abandoned its claim.”

    The Chinese academician was also critical of China’s road building in Doklam that triggered a military stand-off. The move to construct a road, he felt, was a violation of China’s assurance to Bhutan. He hoped China would not try to build the road again in the disputed place and must learn to express regret and finesse its responses.

    “I am a friend of both India and Pakistan. We must not do unnecessary harm against a potentially greater friend India. Instead the strategy should be to evolve mutual understanding and provide mutual concessions,” he said.

    Prof Shen also took on Beijing’s security managers for rubbing the Philippines the wrong way over some “artificial rocks’’ in South China Sea. “Why didn’t China send a lawyer to contest the Philippines’s claims before an international tribunal? This hurts me. We must moderate our behaviour. I don’t want China to lose face every year. Officially, we don’t admit, but money can’t buy respect, though money matters. When we have money trouble comes,” he cautioned.

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