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Thread: Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    They are testing our border at different points to see what happens. Testing the India Bhutan connection. Re-opening previous agreements to gain leverage. So trumpian

    https://scroll.in/article/842246/exp...-to-do-with-it

    Mea statement, Jun 30
    http://www.mea.gov.in/press-releases...in+Doklam+Area

    Unless I see something more concrete this has nothing to do with OBOR.
    The MEA press release is corroborated by this - No bulldozers used by China for destroying Indian army bunkers: India

    Is India playing it down?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    The MEA press release is corroborated by this - No bulldozers used by China for destroying Indian army bunkers: India

    Is India playing it down?
    The bunkers are generally temporary. Made of rocks and stone found nearby. You don't need bulldozers to remove them.

    There has not troop withdrawals. And with the Chinese Ambassador giving out threats, India will not back down.

    This will be standoff, unless one of them decides to shoot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by n21 View Post
    The bunkers are generally temporary. Made of rocks and stone found nearby. You don't need bulldozers to remove them.

    There has not troop withdrawals. And with the Chinese Ambassador giving out threats, India will not back down.

    This will be standoff, unless one of them decides to shoot.
    That area is rocky, nothing grows there. And the Chinese ambassador should be kicked out of India. He can't be in Indian soil and use undiplomatic language.

    What if the Chinese shoot first? The Indian Army and the Defence Minister is very silent about things. It's mostly Chinese media which is over-reacting and the source of my news. -

    One thing to wonder is Mr. Modi was in US when things started appearing in the press, and Mr. Modi is again on a trip to Israel. He doesn't seem to give a jack about threats from China. Something is brewing.

    Btw, a hilarious but true incident on how the Chinese grab sovereign territory of other countries.

    When Atal Bihari Vajpayee exposed China's designs with a flock of sheep

    No incident can better explain China's permanent belligerant stance towards India than what happened on the Sikkim border in 1965.

    An interesting exchange of letters between the two countries reveals that China accused Indian troops of stealing a flock of 800 sheep and 59 yaks from Tibetan herdsmen near the Sikkim border. China demanded the animals back from India, warning it of dire consequences.

    To protest against this ludicrous allegation, former prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, who was then just a Member of Parliament, drove a herd of sheep to the Chinese embassy in Delhi. They protestors said China would start a world war over sheep and yaks. They carried placards, saying, "Eat me but save the world."

    China got incensed that its bullying had come out in the open with the protest. It shot off an angry letter to the Indian embassy in China, complaining that Vajpayee's protest was actually backed by the Indian government. The letter also accused Indian troops of incursion into and building military structures in the Chinese territory.

    The Indian government replied in a note to the Chinese embassy in Delhi: "About the four Tibetan inhabitants allegedly kidnapped by Indian troops, an adequate reply has been given in the Indian notes of September 17 and 21. Like other Tibetan refugees these four people had come into India on their own volition and without our permission and taken refuge in India. They are free to go back to Tibet at any time if they desire to do so. Apropos the 800 sheep and 59 yaks the Government of India have already given a reply in the clearest terms possible. We know nothing of the yaks and as regards the sheep it is up to the two herdsmen concerned to take them to Tibet if and when they choose to go back to their homeland."

    On Vajpayee's 'sheep protest', India wrote: "In its note of September 26, China has protested against the peaceful demonstration which was held near the Chinese Embassy in New Delhi on September 24 when some of the citizens of Delhi took in procession about 800 sheeps. The Government of India had nothing to do with this demonstration. It was a spontaneous, peaceful and good-humoured expression of the resentment of the citizens of Delhi against the Chinese ultimatum and the threat of war against India on trumped-up and trivial issues."

    It was clear that China was itching for a fight and inventing flimsy reasons for it. These allegation by China were part of a campaign that finally led to the Sikkim border conflict between India and China in 1967. India emerged a winner in this conflict. India lost nearly 80 Indian soldiers while 300 to 400 Chinese soldiers were killed.

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    Last edited by Oracle; 06 Jul 17, at 05:02.

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    Last edited by Oracle; 07 Jul 17, at 15:43.

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    This is the crux of it. It isn't about Sikkim yet. This isn't an India China dispute. This is a China - Bhutan dispute. Given Bhutan is an Indian protectorate we are involved and standing up by the looks of it. They're trying something new so let's see where it goes.

    Not bothered about the undiplomatic language. This is how they deal with their own people so their people expect no different when dealing with neighbours. Some time ago some chinese dissident movie got aired in Australia, oh you should have seen the language they used there. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    "China is trying its best to use historical lessons to reason with India+ and show sincerity in peacefully solving the problem, but if India refuses to listen, then China would have no other choice than to use a military way of solving the problem," Hu Zhiyong, a research fellow at the Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences, told the state-run Global Times
    Chinese reading of history is selective. Applies to India but not Hong Kong. They did agree they would allow people of HK to pick their own executive. Doesn't apply any more, its just history.

    What if the Chinese shoot first? The Indian Army and the Defence Minister is very silent about things. It's mostly Chinese media which is over-reacting and the source of my news.
    That's just it. Tactically ie lower down there is some movement however restrained, go up the chain and its silent. So its quite bottled up and contained. There won't shoot first, the prize for them is get the neighbours to abandon India and side with China. Better still if no shot was fired in the process.

    Jaitley's comment about not being 1962 was to a journalist and not direct. Chinese media over acts every time we are seen in a better light. That's just not how its supposed to be. Everybody is supposed to tow the line.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 09 Jul 17, at 01:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    This is the crux of it. It isn't about Sikkim yet. This isn't an India China dispute. This is a China - Bhutan dispute. Given Bhutan is an Indian protectorate we are involved and standing up by the looks of it. They're trying something new so let's see where it goes.

    Not bothered about the undiplomatic language. This is how they deal with their own people so their people expect no different when dealing with neighbours. Some time ago some chinese dissident movie got aired in Australia, oh you should have seen the language they used there. lol
    Border row: Indian Army getting ready for long haul in Doklam

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Chinese reading of history is selective. Applies to India but not Hong Kong. They did agree they would allow people of HK to pick their own executive. Doesn't apply any more, its just history.
    Countries do notice these events. Chinas' selective memory will bring about the unbolting, one screw at a time, of the CPC. I hope it does. They have staked everything on the BRI, if it doesn't end well, the unbolting will start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    That's just it. Tactically ie lower down there is some movement however restrained, go up the chain and its silent. So its quite bottled up and contained. There won't shoot first, the prize for them is get the neighbours to abandon India and side with China. Better still if no shot was fired in the process.
    Sun Tzu huh!

    This time, they have shown their cards even before the play started. The problem here is for China. Every other country except Pak and China themselves, know China is the aggressor here.
    #1. Shots are fired. China can't win and withdraw.
    #2. China backs off.

    In both these cases, the smaller states in ECS and the SCS would rise up to Chinese claims. That in my view doesn't give China much room for future threatening or negotiations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Jaitley's comment about not being 1962 was to a journalist and not direct. Chinese media over acts every time we are seen in a better light. That's just not how its supposed to be. Everybody is supposed to tow the line.
    Well, we are citizens of a free country and do not toe the line of the GoI. Can't say much about the subjects living in imperial China.

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Brahma arguing that India should subtly question China's claims over Tibet

    Asia’s colossus threatens a tiny state | JT | Jul 04 2017

    By arbitrarily halting the pilgrimages, Beijing is reminding New Delhi to review its Tibet policy. India needs to subtly reopen Tibet as an outstanding issue to fend off Chinese pressure. After all, China lays claim to Indian and Bhutanese territories on the basis of alleged Tibetan (not Han Chinese) links to them historically. India must start to question China’s purportedly historical claim to Tibet itself.
    Bhutan stopped being an Indian protectorate in 2007 when they signed a friendship treaty. Their foreign policy now is 'guided' by us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Brahma arguing that India should subtly question China's claims over Tibet

    Asia’s colossus threatens a tiny state | JT | Jul 04 2017

    Bhutan stopped being an Indian protectorate in 2007 when they signed a friendship treaty. Their foreign policy now is 'guided' by us.
    The article starts with Asian colossus, China - WTF is that? The 1962 war is so deeply ingrained in the collective memory of Indians, that anything related to China is seen a huge, big, superpower etc. This passive attitude, defeatist mentality needs to go and the old guards need to retire. India as of 2017 carries a long enough stick to sit in Delhi and beat China's ass in Shenzhen. India needs to treat China like it treats Pakistan, i.e. a rouge regime.

    BRAHMA CHELLANEY says - China has been upgrading its military infrastructure and deployments in this highly strategic region so that, in the event of a war, its military blitzkrieg can cut off India from its northeast. Such an invasion would also leave Bhutan completely surrounded and at China’s mercy - the Indian Army occupies strategic positions in Bhutan as well as Sikkim, to oversee what mischief the Chinese are upto, which is why they could stop the PLA in the first place. And all these people who write about superior infrastructure on the Tibet sector including Claude Arpi, needs to shut up. Arunachal border for example is divided by huge mountains. The Chinese just cannot roll with their tanks, artillery, and mechanized forces. No way. The Chinese do have significant military presence in Tibet, but it is not overwhelming. Any build-up will be picked up by Indian military satellites. They can sure para-drop SoF, what about logistics? It will be a suicide mission.

    And the Tibet card needs to be played by none other than MoS Defence Kiren Rijju, an Arunachali, and it should be overt.
    Exiled Tibetan Leader’s Photo Op With Flag at Pangong Tso Adds Tibet Card to India-China Border Mix

    As for Bhutan, security policy is a subset of foreign policy, which is a nicety considering strategic realities.
    Last edited by Oracle; 10 Jul 17, at 06:32.

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    Chinese expert warns of troops entering Kashmir, sure, and we reserve the right to bomb anything and everything from Xinjiang to Gwadar.

    Harvard study predicts dramatic fall in China's economic growth, impressive rise for India

    'Will start looking at trade relations': US warns China over North Korea

    In the quest for money, land and control, the CPC is committing strategic mistakes in supporting Pak, NK etc. Am I the only one to believe that? Time will tell.

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    The US wants India to engage more in Afghanistan. Right now, Afghan Army leaders gets trained in India and India has gifted some old choppers to the ANA. India needs to ramp up this relationship to the strategic level.

    #1. Talk with the US, Afghans on leasing India an air-base. Station a squadron of Sukhois and AWACS there. The Sukhois are not for ops, just for deception. This will ring alarm bells in Rawalpindi and Beijing.
    #2. Gift the Afghans a fleet of Mig-21 Bisons and Mig-27s, and train their pilots. As also mortars, indigenous Kalyani artillery and radars.
    #3. Have Indian SoF and SFF stationed there, to not only train the Afghan SoF, but conduct joint operations with the US/NATO+Afghan SoFs.
    #4. Get mining rights in Afghanistan. This takes care of the money problem.
    #5. Keep developing Afghanistans' infrastructure.
    #6. Hire ex-spooks and bureaucrats like Amrullah Saleh & Bruce Riedel with million dollar salaries as advisers to the Indian NSA, on how to go on about the listed points and achieving strategic objectives.

    A new front has just been created against Pak and China. If India aspires to achieve bigger things on the global stage, it needs to pull its socks up and punch with the appropriate weight.

    India will burn itself if it creates trouble over Tibetans: Chinese daily, and another.
    Last edited by Oracle; 11 Jul 17, at 04:36.

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    Border standoff: Why Bhutan will not ditch India

    Excerpts:
    "Bhutan will never go behind India's back. It has as much at risk from the Chinese incursion in Doklam plateau as India," a Bhutanese analyst said while requesting anonymity.

    "If Chinese troops claim the disputed area, including Doklam, they will be in control of the high mountain ridges. This will put our Haa, Paro and Thimphu valleys within China's artillery range," he said. Forward movement of Chinese troops will make them capable of cutting off the 165 km road from Thimphu, the capital, to Phuentsholing, the city which is the gateway for import of food and other materials from India, he said.

    "The attempt by the Chinese is to take as much roads as it can from there to the Indian and Bhutanese borders in the vicinity," Thimphu-based weekly, The Bhutanese, wrote in a commentary.

    "For Bhutan, loss of any territory or incursions into its areas is not welcome as discussed in several past National Assembly sessions, with both pre-democracy Chimis (people's representatives) and the post-democracy MPs from the area bringing up the issue of encroachments from the Chinese side," it said.
    India boosts troop presence near face-off site with China

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