Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789
Results 121 to 133 of 133

Thread: Fall of France

  1. #121
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Jan 07
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    9,134
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I've got it on now. Did you ever read "SS alibi of a nation" it more or less says the same thing..where by the German people blame the SS for the atrocities that took place during Hitlers rule when in fact they were what made up the SS infrastructure.
    I haven't read it, but I've read a bit of similar stuff. Of course, it wasn't just the SS that did the killing. It was everyone else too. Are you familiar with 'Ordinary Men' by Christopher Browning? If not it is worth tracking down. This is a review that gives you an idea of its premise - the participation of 'ordinary' Germans in mass murder.

    This is part of a review he did of other books (sadly most is behind a pay wall):

    Two events in the 1990s altered this situation. The first was the publication of my book Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland in 1992, quickly followed by Daniel Goldhagen’s Hitler’s Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust in 1996. The second event was the exhibition of the Hamburg Institute of Social Research, “War of Annihilation: Crimes of the Wehrmacht 1941–1944,” which extensively toured Germany from 1995 to 1999 and engendered both high attendance and considerable controversy. Ordinary Men and Hitler’s Willing Executioners overlapped in their focus on Reserve Police Battalion 101 as a test case because its commander had openly given his men—randomly conscripted, middle-aged reservists with a low rate of party membership and little police training and ideological indoctrination—the option not to participate in mass executions of Jews in Poland. Nonetheless the great majority did not avail themselves of this option.

    Both books demonstrated that “ordinary” German men—and not just SS fanatics and ideologues, carefully selected and indoctrinated—had become mass murderers.
    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2013...ermans-did-it/

    Right watched that, He gives a fair summation of an area which has been neglected in Western history books. I noticed when I was in the US that the book shops still had copies of books written by Manstein, Guderian etc Which is where I bought my copies.. Clearly they are useful reading but without a Soviet English version of events its very difficult to get a balanced perspective.
    Correct. Sadly there will always be holes in the Soviet accounts because so much of what was written under the Communist regime was even more compromised than the German version we inherited. Post- Cold War scholarship has plugged a great many gaps, but many of those valuable first person accounts from officers are problematic. Still, its great that we now have a body of scholarship that has had access to Soviet-era records.

    An example of how this has changed things is a simple thing like Russian casualties in the Winter War. In the post-Stalin era no less than Khruschev was waving around figures like 1 million Russian dead. Post-Soviet scholarship has provided a range of figures, but none are more than 15% of that figure. Quite the change.

    One point on the influence of postwar German narratives that is worth spelling out (I've hinted at it) is its impact on Holocaust scholarship. As you have encountered already with your 'blame the SS' book, Germans were very keen to convince themselves and everyone else that it was just a core of fanatics who did the bad stuff. A key part of that has been the 'clean Wehrmacht' idea, something that has had a powerful impact on Western thinking. German officers got to paint themselves as skillful, detached professionals and their men as brave warriors. True as far as it went, but leaving out some very important facts. When an exhibition toured Germany in the late 90s trying to dispel some of these ideas it attracted considerable controversy and anger.

    What interests me is the extent to which people in the anglosphere have internalized the 'clean Wehrmacht' idea. You can still get into some pretty willing online arguments if you dare to point out just how nasty the German Army really was.

    As was said to me by my Grandad, "we (the allies) were pretty hopeless at war, so the Germans must have been diabolical at it"
    Wise man your Grandad. The way people talk about the German military you'd think they won. ;-)


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  2. #122
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,232
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Thats some serious Yoda shit man. There is not try, only do or do not!
    Leaves more time for quality beer drinking....
    “We had been hopelessly labouring to plough waste lands; to make nationality grow in a place full of the certainty of God… Among the tribes our creed could be only like the desert grass – a beautiful swift seeming of spring; which, after a day’s heat, fell dusty.”
    ― T.E. Lawrence, Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph

  3. #123
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,232
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    I haven't read it, but I've read a bit of similar stuff. Of course, it wasn't just the SS that did the killing. It was everyone else too. Are you familiar with 'Ordinary Men' by Christopher Browning? If not it is worth tracking down. This is a review that gives you an idea of its premise - the participation of 'ordinary' Germans in mass murder.

    This is part of a review he did of other books (sadly most is behind a pay wall):



    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2013...ermans-did-it/



    Correct. Sadly there will always be holes in the Soviet accounts because so much of what was written under the Communist regime was even more compromised than the German version we inherited. Post- Cold War scholarship has plugged a great many gaps, but many of those valuable first person accounts from officers are problematic. Still, its great that we now have a body of scholarship that has had access to Soviet-era records.

    An example of how this has changed things is a simple thing like Russian casualties in the Winter War. In the post-Stalin era no less than Khruschev was waving around figures like 1 million Russian dead. Post-Soviet scholarship has provided a range of figures, but none are more than 15% of that figure. Quite the change.

    One point on the influence of postwar German narratives that is worth spelling out (I've hinted at it) is its impact on Holocaust scholarship. As you have encountered already with your 'blame the SS' book, Germans were very keen to convince themselves and everyone else that it was just a core of fanatics who did the bad stuff. A key part of that has been the 'clean Wehrmacht' idea, something that has had a powerful impact on Western thinking. German officers got to paint themselves as skillful, detached professionals and their men as brave warriors. True as far as it went, but leaving out some very important facts. When an exhibition toured Germany in the late 90s trying to dispel some of these ideas it attracted considerable controversy and anger.

    What interests me is the extent to which people in the anglosphere have internalized the 'clean Wehrmacht' idea. You can still get into some pretty willing online arguments if you dare to point out just how nasty the German Army really was.



    Wise man your Grandad. The way people talk about the German military you'd think they won. ;-)
    This entire discussion of sources and their veracity.....man, it so reminds me of the Lost Cause Mythology written in the wake of our Civil War!
    “We had been hopelessly labouring to plough waste lands; to make nationality grow in a place full of the certainty of God… Among the tribes our creed could be only like the desert grass – a beautiful swift seeming of spring; which, after a day’s heat, fell dusty.”
    ― T.E. Lawrence, Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph

  4. #124
    Patron
    Join Date
    07 Oct 14
    Location
    San Jose, CA.
    Posts
    250
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Watch the video Toby, after the war everyone in Germany fell over themselves to blame Adolf. The military was especially keen. I mean, they were the best military in the world (just ask them), so someone else had to be to blame. Unlike the Red Army, the German Army had a lot of latitude until right near the end.

    The problem with 'subject peoples' was that the Nazis didn't go to all the trouble of invading Eastern Europe to treat the locals as equals. They actually weren't that bad in the Baltics unless you were jewish. Bit messier further south, however. The problem was that Adolf was planning an empire and a lot of those locals were sort of in the way.

    Again its an interesting contrast with Stalin. Equally evil, yet there was no 'war of extermination' going the other way. The USSR beat up anyone who wasn't with the program, killed off those who were really in the way and installed some truly vile governments. Nothing good about any of that. However, he didn't set out to depopulate the place. Its about the only good thing you can say about the guy.

    I'm afraid that I can never divorce the German military from the state it served. It didn't just passively enable Hitler, it actively helped him.
    If you look at the Russian Revolution. It is the 1940-1945 eastern front with out the maneuver warfare, but all the same players. Heinz Guderian, Mikhail Petrovich Petrov. The Germans acted, well from from the Heinz Guderian wiki page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Guderian

    "The commanders of the regular German army had intended that this move would allow the army to reassert its control over the Iron Division; however, their hopes were disappointed. Rather than restrain the Freikorps, Guderian's anti-communism caused him to empathize with the Iron Division's efforts to defend Prussia against the Soviet threat. The Iron Division waged a ruthless campaign in Lithuania and pushed into Latvia; however, traditional German anti-Slavic attitudes prevented the division's full cooperation with the White Russian and Baltic forces opposing the Bolsheviks."

    This is 1919-20 before the rise of the Nazi Party

  5. #125
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Jan 07
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    9,134
    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Leaves more time for quality beer drinking....
    You call that over-hopped craft beer Americans drink 'quality'? I think that is what they call the soft bigotry of low expectations. ;-)


    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    This entire discussion of sources and their veracity.....man, it so reminds me of the Lost Cause Mythology written in the wake of our Civil War!
    There is a reason for that. What German officers did after WW2 was their own version of the 'lost cause'. Of course, the scale of the evil they served made it impossible to try to redeem the war the way Confederates did (and subsequent generations continue to try to do). Only the most hard core fringe elements in Germany & elsewhere have tried to do that. Instead, German officers tried to redeem their own reputations & those of their men.

    Its about creating the idea of a professional military aloof from the nasty politics of the day. Its about this professional force having its skill swamped by numbers or undermined by Hitler. Its about leaving all responsibility for atrocities at the feet of the Nazis. So rather than a 'lost cause' it is about 'preserving honor' in the face of a world that sees you as evil mass murderers and losers.

    The remarkable aspect of this that is to a considerable extent absent in the 'lost cause' mythology is the complicity of the former enemy. Officers, historians & writers from Britain & the US seemed to fall over themselves to help create the myth of the noble, professional Wehrmacht. Clearly the Cold War had an impact, but the rest of it is worth of some serious psychological analysis. Some of the stuff I read as a kid - 50s & 60s vintage - is basically hagiography. The Rommel stuff is the worst. It takes a truly epic feat of selective blindness to look at a body of men who helped to install the Nazis in power, often enthusiastically supported them & helped them do incredibly evil things and virtually treat them as heroes.

    None of this is to deny the undoubted skill of the German military and some of its better officers. However, that skill was able to weave itself into some incredibly powerful & enduring myths.


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  6. #126
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Jan 07
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    9,134
    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed View Post
    If you look at the Russian Revolution. It is the 1940-1945 eastern front with out the maneuver warfare, but all the same players. Heinz Guderian, Mikhail Petrovich Petrov. The Germans acted, well from from the Heinz Guderian wiki page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Guderian

    "The commanders of the regular German army had intended that this move would allow the army to reassert its control over the Iron Division; however, their hopes were disappointed. Rather than restrain the Freikorps, Guderian's anti-communism caused him to empathize with the Iron Division's efforts to defend Prussia against the Soviet threat. The Iron Division waged a ruthless campaign in Lithuania and pushed into Latvia; however, traditional German anti-Slavic attitudes prevented the division's full cooperation with the White Russian and Baltic forces opposing the Bolsheviks."

    This is 1919-20 before the rise of the Nazi Party
    Yep. The unpalatable truth is that the German officer corps was in agreement with an awful lot of what Hitler wanted, including the conquest of Europe. They were up to their necks in the politics of the day.


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  7. #127
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,232
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    You call that over-hopped craft beer Americans drink 'quality'? I think that is what they call the soft bigotry of low expectations. ;-)


    I don't like those overhopped IPAs, etc. Their good compost starters. I am partial to the nonfruit wheats and some traditional ales & lagers.

    There is a reason for that. What German officers did after WW2 was their own version of the 'lost cause'. Of course, the scale of the evil they served made it impossible to try to redeem the war the way Confederates did (and subsequent generations continue to try to do). Only the most hard core fringe elements in Germany & elsewhere have tried to do that. Instead, German officers tried to redeem their own reputations & those of their men.

    Its about creating the idea of a professional military aloof from the nasty politics of the day. Its about this professional force having its skill swamped by numbers or undermined by Hitler. Its about leaving all responsibility for atrocities at the feet of the Nazis. So rather than a 'lost cause' it is about 'preserving honor' in the face of a world that sees you as evil mass murderers and losers.

    The remarkable aspect of this that is to a considerable extent absent in the 'lost cause' mythology is the complicity of the former enemy. Officers, historians & writers from Britain & the US seemed to fall over themselves to help create the myth of the noble, professional Wehrmacht. Clearly the Cold War had an impact, but the rest of it is worth of some serious psychological analysis. Some of the stuff I read as a kid - 50s & 60s vintage - is basically hagiography. The Rommel stuff is the worst. It takes a truly epic feat of selective blindness to look at a body of men who helped to install the Nazis in power, often enthusiastically supported them & helped them do incredibly evil things and virtually treat them as heroes.

    None of this is to deny the undoubted skill of the German military and some of its better officers. However, that skill was able to weave itself into some incredibly powerful & enduring myths.
    Yeah whenever I here the "separate with honor" argument I always counter with then why did the entire Wehrmact (Das Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine) all swear the Wehrmacht Oath of Loyalty to Adolf Hitler, 2 August 1934

    "I swear to God this sacred oath that to the Leader of the German Empire and people, Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces, I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared to give my life for this oath."
    “We had been hopelessly labouring to plough waste lands; to make nationality grow in a place full of the certainty of God… Among the tribes our creed could be only like the desert grass – a beautiful swift seeming of spring; which, after a day’s heat, fell dusty.”
    ― T.E. Lawrence, Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph

  8. #128
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
    Join Date
    06 Nov 16
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    908
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Are you familiar with 'Ordinary Men' by Christopher Browning? If not it is worth tracking down. This is a review that gives you an idea of its premise - the participation of 'ordinary' Germans in mass murder.

    This is part of a review he did of other books (sadly most is behind a pay wall):

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2013...ermans-did-it/
    Cheers I'll have a look at that


    One point on the influence of postwar German narratives that is worth spelling out (I've hinted at it) is its impact on Holocaust scholarship. As you have encountered already with your 'blame the SS' book, Germans were very keen to convince themselves and everyone else that it was just a core of fanatics who did the bad stuff. A key part of that has been the 'clean Wehrmacht' idea, something that has had a powerful impact on Western thinking. German officers got to paint themselves as skillful, detached professionals and their men as brave warriors. True as far as it went, but leaving out some very important facts. When an exhibition toured Germany in the late 90s trying to dispel some of these ideas it attracted considerable controversy and anger.

    What interests me is the extent to which people in the anglosphere have internalized the 'clean Wehrmacht' idea. You can still get into some pretty willing online arguments if you dare to point out just how nasty the German Army really was.
    You may have seen the video below already but I thought it fitted your observations quite well

    Picture a courthouse with no fuckin laws, Picture a cathouse with no fuckin whores
    Picture a shithouse with no fuckin drains, Picture a leader with no fuckin brains

  9. #129
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Jan 07
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    9,134
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post

    You may have seen the video below already but I thought it fitted your observations quite well

    I haven't seen it but its pretty stomach churning stuff. I suppose there is a natural human instinct to want to see yourself as somehow on the side of right. Even more so when you have fought, killed & seen your comrades die. The moment at the end where they rush to just of rounding up 600 innocent men & then try to shrug off that whole awkward invasion of Holland thingy. Sort of undermines the 'struggle against Bolshevism' justification. They know they are lying to themselves, but they need to cling to it.

    I actually find all of that relatively easy to understand. The willingness of some people in the West to accept a slightly less absurd version is harder to understand. I wonder if its peculiar to the anglosphere? Not having suffered German occupation (other than the Channel Islands) perhaps it is easier for Brits & Americans to accept a sanitized & even romanticized version. The Blitz etc. were unpleasant, but a few tens of thousands of dead isn't quire the same as hundreds of villages exterminated & trasin loads of people never seen again.

    Interesting contrast with the way the the Japanese military is treated by the same populace. Yamamoto & some of the naval commanders get decent press, but you don't get people jerking off about Yamashita or putting pictures of him up as their avatars. Too many stories of dead POWs for a 'noble IJA' mythology to take route, though some of the feats of arms were seriously impressive.


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  10. #130
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
    Join Date
    06 Nov 16
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    908
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    I haven't seen it but its pretty stomach churning stuff. I suppose there is a natural human instinct to want to see yourself as somehow on the side of right. Even more so when you have fought, killed & seen your comrades die. The moment at the end where they rush to just of rounding up 600 innocent men & then try to shrug off that whole awkward invasion of Holland thingy. Sort of undermines the 'struggle against Bolshevism' justification. They know they are lying to themselves, but they need to cling to it.

    I actually find all of that relatively easy to understand. The willingness of some people in the West to accept a slightly less absurd version is harder to understand. I wonder if its peculiar to the anglosphere? Not having suffered German occupation (other than the Channel Islands) perhaps it is easier for Brits & Americans to accept a sanitized & even romanticized version. The Blitz etc. were unpleasant, but a few tens of thousands of dead isn't quire the same as hundreds of villages exterminated & trasin loads of people never seen again.

    Interesting contrast with the way the the Japanese military is treated by the same populace. Yamamoto & some of the naval commanders get decent press, but you don't get people jerking off about Yamashita or putting pictures of him up as their avatars. Too many stories of dead POWs for a 'noble IJA' mythology to take route, though some of the feats of arms were seriously impressive.
    The poor girl looks completely bewildered by their refusal to acknowledge a crime was committed as they brush past her. Silly old sods!
    Last edited by Toby; 15 Jul 17, at 19:13.
    Picture a courthouse with no fuckin laws, Picture a cathouse with no fuckin whores
    Picture a shithouse with no fuckin drains, Picture a leader with no fuckin brains

  11. #131
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,451
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    I haven't seen it but its pretty stomach churning stuff. I suppose there is a natural human instinct to want to see yourself as somehow on the side of right. Even more so when you have fought, killed & seen your comrades die. The moment at the end where they rush to just of rounding up 600 innocent men & then try to shrug off that whole awkward invasion of Holland thingy. Sort of undermines the 'struggle against Bolshevism' justification. They know they are lying to themselves, but they need to cling to it.
    German reprisals against partisans goes back to the Franco-Prussian War. Under the laws of war frank tireurs were not protected and reprisals were common.


    I actually find all of that relatively easy to understand. The willingness of some people in the West to accept a slightly less absurd version is harder to understand. I wonder if its peculiar to the anglosphere? Not having suffered German occupation (other than the Channel Islands) perhaps it is easier for Brits & Americans to accept a sanitized & even romanticized version.
    Likely, plus we needed Germany during the Cold War.

    The Blitz etc. were unpleasant, but a few tens of thousands of dead isn't quire the same as hundreds of villages exterminated & trasin loads of people never seen again.
    Imagine the Russian view... From 1608-1945 they faced invasion from the west 8 times. Poland-Lithuania, Sweden, Napoleon, Crimean War, WWI, Allied Expeditionary forces during the Russian Civil War Polish-Soviet War, WWII...

    Interesting contrast with the way the the Japanese military is treated by the same populace. Yamamoto & some of the naval commanders get decent press, but you don't get people jerking off about Yamashita or putting pictures of him up as their avatars. Too many stories of dead POWs for a 'noble IJA' mythology to take route, though some of the feats of arms were seriously impressive.
    Wonder how much is due to the visual impact of the war machines they rode into combat? Tiger Tank, Fockewulf... etc are visually appealing. So to the Yamato and zero. Banzai charges not so much. Each nation has its own suicide run to memorialize; Picketts Charge, Somme, Gallipolli; no need to borrow suicide charges from Japan

  12. #132
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Jan 07
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    9,134
    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    German reprisals against partisans goes back to the Franco-Prussian War. Under the laws of war frank tireurs were not protected and reprisals were common.
    I'm pretty sure mass reprisals aren't permitted in the laws of war. Nazi reprisals, especially in places like Belarus, amount to widespread mass murder. War crimes.

    Likely, plus we needed Germany during the Cold War.
    I think that probably had more impact on the lack of a Russian perspective, though it certainly helped to dampen hostility. I suspect the willingness of Germany to collectively accept responsibility for most of the crimes committed and the fact that there were war crimes trials made people willing to accept the 'good Germans' stuff.

    Imagine the Russian view... From 1608-1945 they faced invasion from the west 8 times. Poland-Lithuania, Sweden, Napoleon, Crimean War, WWI, Allied Expeditionary forces during the Russian Civil War Polish-Soviet War, WWII...
    I was thinking more of immediate circumstances. If we want to delve into history then Russia is no worse off than a lot of European nations & better off than many - it occupied more nations than occupied it.


    Wonder how much is due to the visual impact of the war machines they rode into combat? Tiger Tank, Fockewulf... etc are visually appealing. So to the Yamato and zero. Banzai charges not so much. Each nation has its own suicide run to memorialize; Picketts Charge, Somme, Gallipolli; no need to borrow suicide charges from Japan
    Could be something to that. I suspect there is also a racial element. Japan could be seen as a barbarian 'other'. Germans were civilized people 'just like us'. Easier to find heroes and see the evil as 'temporary madness'.


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  13. #133
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,451
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    I'm pretty sure mass reprisals aren't permitted in the laws of war. Nazi reprisals, especially in places like Belarus, amount to widespread mass murder. War crimes.
    IIIRC, the reprisals are actually called collective punishment under the LOAC and reprisal is a specific legal term for actions between states. Like most things the type of collective punishment, scale and underlying cassus belli all must be weighed. The US burnt an awful lot of villages in Vietnam for suspected involvement with the VC. In the case of Germany, the scale and lack of legal cassus belli makes em illegal. That being said, the German mindset from 1870-1945 was particularly aggressive towards franc tireurs. What happened in Poland, Belarus and other occupied countries was not a fluke of the Nazi regime but an outgrowth of a common mindset held by the Heer. Being brutal to occupied people was a normal German tactic through at least 3 major wars.



    I think that probably had more impact on the lack of a Russian perspective, though it certainly helped to dampen hostility. I suspect the willingness of Germany to collectively accept responsibility for most of the crimes committed and the fact that there were war crimes trials made people willing to accept the 'good Germans' stuff.
    Or maybe exhaustion, or maybe the suffering visited on Germany after WWII was enough to re-balance the scales. The Allies in particular the French and US took a lot of revenge on the German people until the Berlin Blockade.

    I was thinking more of immediate circumstances. If we want to delve into history then Russia is no worse off than a lot of European nations & better off than many - it occupied more nations than occupied it.
    Perhaps but good luck getting a Russian to see that. They have a national victim mindset. No matter how many cultures they crushed, how many tribes and small states gobbled up, how many nations occupied they only see the invasions.

    Could be something to that. I suspect there is also a racial element. Japan could be seen as a barbarian 'other'. Germans were civilized people 'just like us'. Easier to find heroes and see the evil as 'temporary madness'.
    Maybe, but as someone who is a dedicated Nissan guy, the Japanese have a flair for the visual. The Yamoto class with its massive pagoda super structure is visually perfect ship.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 11 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 11 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. The Fall of Pelosi?
    By Ironduke in forum American Politics & Economy
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 15 May 09,, 22:15
  2. The Fall Of Rome?
    By Ironside in forum Ancient, Medieval & Early Modern Ages
    Replies: 61
    Last Post: 26 May 06,, 02:47
  3. The Fall of Communism
    By Leader in forum Multimedia & Jukebox room
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 26 Jul 05,, 10:40
  4. The fall of France
    By tarek in forum International Politics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 27 Sep 04,, 23:26

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •