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Thread: Fall of France

  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Sorry Z, that isn't what the specs say. Both classified as 6x4.
    Source?

    The Gaz-MM (the AAA was an anti-aircraft platform) was the war time version of the Gaz-AA that had no front bumper, wooden doors with sliding widows, a single headlight and welded flat fenders instead of stamped rounded ones. The only real improvement was the engine from the Gaz-A Emka which gave the MM 49hp as compared to the AA's 39hp. The AA was a license built Ford AA 1.5 ton single axle duel rear wheel truck and was 5.3m long and 2m wide. The Soviets said it was 3.3 tons but this is likely do to different criteria. 3300kg was probably the max for the AA/MM under ideal conditions. The US-6 (studebaker) was a 2.5 tons (US weight conventions) under any conditions. It was a dual axle dual wheel truck though only one axle was powered hence the 4x6 even though it had 10 wheels. The "short U1 version if the US6 was 6.3m long and 2.4m wide withan 86hp engine. I have included a pick of each plus the Zis-5.You can clearly see the front axles of all 3, only the US6 has a pumkin

    The Zis-5 was the same size as the Gaz-AA. The Soviets did make a medium truck in the same family as the US6 called the Zis-6, which was a lengthened Zis-5. They made 21,000 of them in 8 years. Postwar the Soviets copied the US6 as the Zis-151 but not until 1948.
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  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    How would the T-34 be key for the East and West Fronts since the IJA never saw and never even considered being enveloped by them? By the time the IJA knew of them, it was already too late to even put up a hasty defence.
    Range. The only Soviet tanks in the FE with the range to exploit breakthroughs were the BT-7's. The BT-7 was very thin skinned. The Soviets lost dozens of them in 39 to Japanese AT guns. Without a lot more BT-7's or T-34's Zhukov's spearheads run out of gas 4-6 hours after leaving their start positions. If you don't have a tank that can run all day you have very short advances.

    And it also proves that they could not think operationally and prepared to fight the next battle nor even the enevitable counter-attack from an enemy still on the battlefield and not denied contingencies.
    That was the Japanese government, they had (some) field commanders who were not idiots

    His recee and intel were failures. He didn't know he was facing a superior enemy and he was blinded by Zuhkov's fixing force.
    He didn't control the IJAAF. He was just a divisions commander who fought Zhukov to a stalemate.

    That would not make sense to me that Zhukov would attack with such low odds. He prefered at least 5 to 1 advantage and the build up be as stealthy as possible.
    Infrastructure and logistics transport net in the Soviet FE in 42 along with Soviet logistical acumen isn't there. He attacked the way he did in 39 becuase he knew he didn't have to worry about the battle expanding into a general war.

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Range. The only Soviet tanks in the FE with the range to exploit breakthroughs were the BT-7's. The BT-7 was very thin skinned. The Soviets lost dozens of them in 39 to Japanese AT guns. Without a lot more BT-7's or T-34's Zhukov's spearheads run out of gas 4-6 hours after leaving their start positions. If you don't have a tank that can run all day you have very short advances.
    I'm not seeing what you're seeing. The pincer movements (East and West Flanks) arrived at their objectives as full armies. There was no breaching force. The tanks arrived with the guns and grunts.

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    That was the Japanese government, they had (some) field commanders who were not idiots
    They were the top of their class, the best of the Japanese best but the Japanese best were decades behind in maneuver thought. Hell, the Japanese did not even have an Operational Level HQ.

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    He didn't control the IJAAF. He was just a divisions commander who fought Zhukov to a stalemate.
    We didn't (as in you and me) didn't rely on the birds for reccee. He failed when it was most critical.

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Infrastructure and logistics transport net in the Soviet FE in 42 along with Soviet logistical acumen isn't there. He attacked the way he did in 39 becuase he knew he didn't have to worry about the battle expanding into a general war.
    I still am not following you. AUGUST STORM took 6 months from inception to the Declaration of War. Zhukov would not be Zhukov if he did not prep and grab what he needed from European Russia, especially since there's no war with Germany.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 09 Jan 18, at 08:49.

  4. #274
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    This is the GAZ-AAA (1937, 1937, 1940, and 1943 variants). All 6x4.

    AAA was a Soviet designation to indicate 6x4. Likewise, the GAZ-AAAA indicated an 8x4.





    Last edited by Ironduke; 09 Jan 18, at 08:49.

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    This is the GAZ-AAA (1937, 1937, 1940, and 1943 variants). All 6x4.

    AAA was a Soviet designation to indicate 6x4. Likewise, the GAZ-AAAA indicated an 8x4.






    Those diagrams clearly show an unpowered front axle. Its push only, not pull.

  6. #276
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    That's what a 6x4 typically is. Like a tractor trailer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    That's what a 6x4 typically is. Like a tractor trailer.
    NO

    Old Friend, you are wrong. On this particular topic right here, you are effectively arguing against OOE when it comes to battlefield engineering. I've had my class A CDL for 20 years. Have driven well over a million miles. I currently work for a wrecker service where I drive, light, medium and heavy wreckers though my day to day is a heavy rollback called a 4 car tagged for 52k lbs. I've driven over the road for years doing drybox, flatbed, tanker and B-train. Additionally I wheel as both a hobby and an out growth of search and rescue. My current POV (other than my Z car) is a modded 01 Nissan Pathfinder R50 built for rescue and overlanding. When it comes to this topic, this is literally what I do professionally. 4x anything means the front and at least one rear axle is powered. Anything else is 2x unless every axle is powered like some specialty vehicles. Additionally, simply powering rear axles does not improve off road capability. If your front tires break through the crust, you are stuck if they can't power out. Additionally climbing steep grades or dirt or gravel, or even more importantly descending them under maximum load is exceedingly difficult with only rear axles powered. You can literally be pushed off the side of a mountain as your steer tires plow and lose traction if they are not powered.

    You may not agree with me on most things, but on this my expertise is hands on, proffesuional and stretches decades.

  8. #278
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    No, I'm arguing with you on this point. So is every other truck manufacturer on the planet.

    6x4 Rigids

    For applications that will take the truck off good quality roads for a period – such as construction and quarry use – a truck will need better grip. For such applications we add an extra drive axle. Unlike a 4x4 where the front and rear axles do the driving, in a 6x4 it is the two sets of back axles that do the work, leaving the front ones to steer.
    https://www.trucklocator.co.uk/hub/s...configuration/

    To make sure we’re all on the same page, let’s define the difference between 6×2 and 6×4. In a 6×2 configuration, only one of the two rear axles receives power. In a 6×4, both of the tractor’s rear axles are drive axles.
    http://blog.cumminsengines.com/2016/...n-of-traction/





    Take it up with them.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 10 Jan 18, at 04:15.

  9. #279
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    Gentlemen, you're concentrating too much on the trees and missing the forests. The question is could Zukhov did an AUGUST STORM with a build up of the available stock, even European Russian stock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    No, I'm arguing with you on this point. So is every other truck manufacturer on the planet.


    https://www.trucklocator.co.uk/hub/s...configuration/


    http://blog.cumminsengines.com/2016/...n-of-traction/





    Take it up with them.
    Nice sleight if hand, go back to BF's post 261. We've been talking 4x6/4x4 and OFF ROAD and CROSS COUNTY capability not number of powered real axles. 4x means front and rear powered axles. You swapped the position on 6 and 4 and I didn't catch it. Even BF was putting the 4 first.

  11. #281
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Nice sleight if hand, go back to BF's post 261. We've been talking 4x6/4x4 and OFF ROAD and CROSS COUNTY capability not number of powered real axles.
    I call it a 6x4 because that's what they're called.

    Now, you can say the 6x4 GAZ-AAA isn't suitable off-road or cross-country. I didn't take a position one way or the other. You can't say the GAZ-AAA is not a 6x4. It does have a solid front axle, but that doesn't make it a 6x2.

    You swapped the position on 6 and 4 and I didn't catch it
    There's no such thing as a 2x4, 2x6, or 4x6 drivetrain. There's only one order the numbers go in, 4x2, 6x2, 6x4, etc., regardless of which axles are drive axles, whether front or back. The numbers are never swapped. It's (wheel ends) x (wheel ends powered by drive axle[s]). For example, 4x2 can be either FWD or RWD. A 2x4 is a piece of lumber.

    4x means front and rear powered axles.
    4x does not mean front and rear-powered axles. 4x means four wheel ends.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 10 Jan 18, at 22:19.

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    I call it a 6x4 because that's what they're called.

    Now, you can say the 6x4 GAZ-AAA isn't suitable off-road or cross-country. I didn't take a position one way or the other. You can't say the GAZ-AAA is not a 6x4. It does have a solid front axle, but that doesn't make it a 6x2.


    There's no such thing as a 2x4, 2x6, or 4x6 drivetrain. There's only one order the numbers go in, 4x2, 6x2, 6x4, etc., regardless of which axles are drive axles, whether front or back. The numbers are never swapped. It's (wheel ends) x (wheel ends powered by drive axle[s]). For example, 4x2 can be either FWD or RWD. A 2x4 is a piece of lumber.


    4x does not mean front and rear-powered axles. 4x means four wheel ends.
    A tour de force in pedantry.

  13. #283
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    A tour de force in pedantry.
    Yes, it is, but it's correct. You and Bigfella weren't speaking the same language, or even in the correct language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    Yes, it is, but it's correct. You and Bigfella weren't speaking the same language, or even in the correct language.
    My point that the Soviet trucks were not gonna be able to do what US LL trucks could stands.

  15. #285
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    My point that the Soviet trucks were not gonna be able to do what US LL trucks could stands.
    You're right. Lend-lease provided 100,000 US6 6x6s to the SU.

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