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Thread: Fall of France

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    That 60,000 is a Soviet source, So let me get this right. We don't believe the Japanese source but we do believe the Soviet source...we believe Stalin's soviet union???
    Chinese source. The Imperial Japanese Kwantung Army was stationed in Manchuria, China. Captured IJA roll call documents by the Chinese. Well, then we could say Japanese source then since 60,000 men did not answer roll call after 1939.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Which doesn't look good for Soviet training or tactics ...looks quite murderous actually and does kind of fit nicely into the western image of the Red army.
    You mean German who tried to explain away their failures. There was no Soviet training. Those who got battle hardened through at least six months of combat were just as good and as tough as the Germans. Those who didn't ... well, didn't.

    However, to answer your question, at the company and battalion level, the Germans were superior. At the regiment and division level, they were equal. At the Army and Front level, the Soviets were far superior.

    The Japanese ain't nowhere close to either the Soviets nor the Germans.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 03 Jan 18, at 20:37.

  2. #212
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    to be fair, i heard the IJA was actually pretty good at the company level, and there were individual decent generals. Yamashita frankly outclassed McArthur in the Philippines given the vast disparities of resources at their respective disposal.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  3. #213
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post
    Got to wonder whether Japans surprise attack, rapid advance and conquest of South East Asia immediately after Pearl Harbor matches or even surpasses the fall of France as the most remarkable event of the war. Certainly the lesson from both (perhaps repeated throughout history) is that the side that attacks where it's not expected, moves fast and hits hard is the one that wins. In this case at least initially, until the momentum fails, weight of numbers come into play and the defender learns to adapt.
    Given that Japan swept colonies that were relatively lightly garrisoned, the colonial powers of which were either occupied (Netherlands), or extremely distracted (Britain), I'd say no. The US put up the longest fight. Even then, Southeast Asia was-low hanging fruit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Chinese source. The Imperial Japanese Kwantung Army was stationed in Manchuria, China. Captured IJA roll call documents by the Chinese. Well, then we could say Japanese source then since 60,000 men did not answer roll call after 1939.
    Can you back that up?

    You mean German who tried to explain away their failures.
    No Grigori F. Krivosheev a Russian, look him up he seems to know an awful lot about Soviet military in competance

    The Japanese ain't nowhere close to either the Soviets nor the Germans.
    Seriously doubt it!

  5. #215
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    That 60,000 is a Soviet source, So let me get this right. We don't believe the Japanese source but we do believe the Soviet source...we believe Stalin's soviet union???
    Are we talking about Red army or IJA tactics?....coz if the figures are correct

    8,668,000 to 11,400,000 (old border) Soviet troops were killed as against

    2,100,000 to 2,300,000 Japanese troops in WW2

    Which doesn't look good for Soviet training or tactics ...looks quite murderous actually and does kind of fit nicely into the western image of the Red army.
    So Russia, fighting a war of extermination against the best army in the world, lost heavily. And?

    Do you have anything to offer about IJA tactics, training & equipment that is useful here. How did they go fighting a war of movement against an opponent trained in armored warfare & combined arms tactics? How did they go in large operations (army sized actions) against forces with huge amounts of artillery & armor? How did their armies fare when they didn't have air superiority? How quickly did they respond when multiple parts of a large front were penetrated by mobile forces? Any examples of them fighting a large scale tank v tank battle?

    Put some meat on the bones here. Show that you actually understand enough about how a Japanese army fought the sort of battle we are talking about here. Equipment, tactics, logistics. How are they going to cope with what Russia can field in 1942?


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  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Can you back that up?
    I can but won't. I know when to stop banging my head with someone who refuses to learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    No Grigori F. Krivosheev a Russian, look him up he seems to know an awful lot about Soviet military in competance
    I don't have to. I have his book. I know his work and it forms the basis of Colonel Glantz's work. There is no doubt that Soviet tactics were casualties intensive but that is part of their operational calculations. The Soviets never shied away from casualties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Seriously doubt it!
    AUGUST STORM proves your doubt to be groundless.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 04 Jan 18, at 01:18.

  7. #217
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    Toby, you might want to pick up post-war books written by German generals that historians today consider biased. Because even in those, Russian military skill with the indirect approach, massing artillery, deceit and infiltration tactics was widely acknowledged. That and the practicality of their weapons design.
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
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  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    I can but won't. I know when to stop banging my head with someone who refuses to learn.
    Sounding slightly sanctimonious there...again!

    I don't have to. I have his book. I know his work and it forms the basis of Colonel Glantz's work. There is no doubt that Soviet tactics were casualties intensive but that is part of their operational calculations. The Soviets never shied away from casualties.
    I'm trying to help you dig yourself out of your current state of malaise
    AUGUST STORM proves your doubt to be groundless
    Ok show me what you are talking about or can't you be bothered .....again?

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    So Russia, fighting a war of extermination against the best army in the world, lost heavily. And?

    Do you have anything to offer about IJA tactics, training & equipment that is useful here. How did they go fighting a war of movement against an opponent trained in armored warfare & combined arms tactics? How did they go in large operations (army sized actions) against forces with huge amounts of artillery & armor? How did their armies fare when they didn't have air superiority? How quickly did they respond when multiple parts of a large front were penetrated by mobile forces? Any examples of them fighting a large scale tank v tank battle?

    Put some meat on the bones here. Show that you actually understand enough about how a Japanese army fought the sort of battle we are talking about here. Equipment, tactics, logistics. How are they going to cope with what Russia can field in 1942?
    HI Big fella, Happy new year to you to! I'm debating about sources and their accuracy at the moment with the sites NOOB ..he's a bit rusty but I'm getting him upto speed Cheers!

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    HI Big fella, Happy new year to you to! I'm debating about sources and their accuracy at the moment with the sites NOOB ..he's a bit rusty but I'm getting him upto speed Cheers!
    Do you seriously not know who WABs_OOE is? Ever wonder why some folk address the 'NOOB' as 'sir'? When I first got here the Colonel didn't consider it a good week until he had torn a few limbs off a 'NOOB'. harsh but fair ;-). You are just lucky that he has mellowed in his old age.

    I'm afraid the 'NOOB' here is you.


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  11. #221
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    HI Big fella, Happy new year to you to! I'm debating about sources and their accuracy at the moment with the sites NOOB ..he's a bit rusty but I'm getting him upto speed Cheers!
    OoE is shorthand for Officer of Engineers. He's been on WAB since summer 2003.

  12. #222
    Senior Contributor Triple C's Avatar
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    OOE is the highest ranking ret. soldier on this board with command experience in a shooting war or two.
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Do you seriously not know who WABs_OOE is? Ever wonder why some folk address the 'NOOB' as 'sir'? When I first got here the Colonel didn't consider it a good week until he had torn a few limbs off a 'NOOB'. harsh but fair ;-). You are just lucky that he has mellowed in his old age.

    I'm afraid the 'NOOB' here is you.
    That was far more diplomatic than I would have been. I may have gotten banned or at least a strongly worded missive had I seen and been able to reply to that post.

    Hey Toby, ever been beat about the head by a one armed man? I would gladly do it too you. Used to have 2 arms, but when I was a noob, OOE tore one off. It would behoove you too apologize, the colonel is a man of honor. There is a lot of backstory here that you don't know, will likely never know. You are a late comer to this party. We've watched each others kids grow up, seen each other get married, divorced and sadly watched far too many members of the community die.

    And Holy Shit, I've been a member here for over a decade.

    BF, one week exactly till you hit a decade as a wabbit.

  14. #224
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    That was far more diplomatic than I would have been. I may have gotten banned or at least a strongly worded missive had I seen and been able to reply to that post.
    I'm mellowing in my old age too. ;-)

    We've watched each others kids grow up, seen each other get married, divorced and sadly watched far too many members of the community die.
    Amen to that Z. Too many good people gone.

    Not being ex-military there are very, very few people I have referred to as 'sir' with any regularity since I was in short pants. Not something I do just for the hell of it.

    And Holy Shit, I've been a member here for over a decade.

    BF, one week exactly till you hit a decade as a wabbit.
    I realize that you folk across the sea are a bit behind us when it comes to time, but I'm pretty sure you aren't a year behind. Turning 11 this year. :-)
    Last edited by Bigfella; 05 Jan 18, at 12:33.


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  15. #225
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    OoE is shorthand for Officer of Engineers. He's been on WAB since summer 2003.
    For those who might have joined us recently, that is pretty damned close to the beginning of life on WAB.


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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