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  • #91
    Merkel: Germany, China must expand partnership in 'times of global uncertainty'

    As relations with the US appear to worsen, German Chancellor Angela Merkel has called for closer cooperation with China. Merkel and Li have held two days of bilateral talks ahead of next month's G20 summit in Hamburg.


    German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Thursday that Germany must expand its partnership with China at what she described as "a time of global insecurity."

    Chinese Prime Minister Li Keqiang had arrived in Berlin on Wednesday, and held talks with Merkel in the capital on Thursday morning. He was later expected with German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier, before moving on to Brussels.

    Read more: EU, China pledge Paris allegiance whatever Trump does

    "China has become a more important and strategic partner," Merkel said at a joint news conference with Li. "We are living in times of global uncertainty and see that we have a responsibility to expand our partnership in all the different areas and to push for a world order based on law."

    Merkel has in recent days suggested that German-US ties were on less stable ground, having vented her frustration at Trump following last week's G7 talks in Sicily, which she described as "very unsatisfying."

    On Sunday, the chancellor said that Germany could no longer "entirely rely" on certain partners quite as it had in the past, making it clear that a Trump White House and a UK leaving the EU threatened to upset the status quo.

    Trump, meanwhile, has vocally decried Germany's trade surplus and comparatively modest military spending.

    Merkel and Li met hours ahead of Trump's decision on whether to withdraw the US from the Paris climate accord.

    Li told reporters in Berlin that Germany and China "are both ready to contribute to stability in the world."

    Merkel voices support for EU-China free trade pact

    Merkel reportedly gave Li her backing for a free-trade deal between the EU and China, but pointed out that an investment deal would be a precondition to any future trade talks.

    The chancellor also warned that some sticking points between the two export giants remain, such as limited access to Chinese markets and alleged discrimination against those German firms that do operate in China.

    Read more: Germany's Gabriel sees 'deal' with China on e-car quota

    Li: Climate change a ‘global consensus'

    Li used Thursday's meeting with Merkel to reaffirm China's commitment to "steadfastly" implement the Paris climate agreement, even if the US pulls out.

    The Chinese premier will travel to Brussels to meet with EU officials later on Thursday, where he is expected to discuss issues such as climate policy, trade and North Korea.

    Li is expected also to sign a joint statement reaffirming China and EU's commitment to the Paris Agreement.

    "The EU and China consider the Paris Agreement as an historic achievement further accelerating the irreversible global low greenhouse gas emission and climate resilient development," a draft statement, seen on Wednesday by the news agencies Agence France Presse and the Deutsche Presse Agentur, said: "The EU and China underline their highest political commitment to the effective implementation of the Paris Agreement in all its aspects."

    dm/msh (Reuters, dpa)
    http://www.dw.com/en/merkel-germany-...nty/a-39078614

    Comment


    • #93
      Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
      If they do, you probably won't like a Germany and EU conducting a foreign and military policy completely independent to the United States either, ceasing to defer at all to US wishes, refusing to combine diplomatic and sanctions efforts with the US, ceasing to host US military forces, and kicking us out of air, naval and ground forces bases.

      It may very well turn out to be the case that if these countries decide to double their defense commitments -- they may just decide they might as well go all in, and walk away from a formal alliance with the US.

      It may turn out to be the case that we cannot have our cake, and eat it too - the Euros may come to the conclusion that in the aftermath of doubling their defense spending, that being allied to the US is more of a liability than an asset. Being under the US security umbrella makes NATO an asset in their calculations - if the Euros do what Trump wants in having their own sufficient capability to act against and deter threats, an alliance with the US may at that point cross the ledger from asset and become a liability.

      If you're an isolationist who wishes to see the US have a vastly reduced capability to act globally, perhaps this would be a good thing, from your perspective.
      Trump was not original in what he said at nato, the difference was he was more forceful than previous presidents.

      He wants to set a trend in motion where the euros build to a point where they become stronger than present. This could take well over a decade. The US takes a back seat. There is no pulling out. No independent moves, they aren't ready yet.

      The Futures of NATO | Yale Global | May 03 2017

      This isn't about isolationism, it allows the US more resources to concentrate on the middle east and far east.

      The other thing I notice about trump is he doesn't view Russia as an US adversary. If Russia is a problem then it's somebody else's problem. That is unless events prove otherwise.

      The big question is whether these developments reduce Russian threat perception. If so then they feel less obliged to make moves that threaten regional stability. To move in a way that doesn't make Russia a target.

      Comment


      • #94
        Europe without the backing of the US and the UK, the EU is simply a peer among equals and has France as the leading foreign policy voice since she has the seat on the P5, and that weakens Merkel who obviously has Germany and thus the economic voice. She was banking on a Clinton win to offset the UK Brexit and allow her to take a hard line. Now, eve if Li is a surprise globalist, the EU (via France) the only true globalist power and the other members of the P5 are all following a path of national interest over globalist.

        Comment


        • #95
          Originally posted by zraver View Post
          the EU (via France) the only true globalist power and the other members of the P5 are all following a path of national interest over globalist.
          I think you mistake the British decision to leave the EU as some form of isolationism (as it appears Trump wishes to persue no doubt at the behest of his Muscovite masters). In some ways the 'Brexit' decision (which I do not consider wise for foreign policy reasons) has to actually involve more globalist policies. Britain is a trading nation and cannot survive without it. Nor frankly can any nation and erecting trade barriers - as any first year international economics student can tell you - is self defeating.

          Comment


          • #96
            Originally posted by snapper View Post
            I think you mistake the British decision to leave the EU as some form of isolationism (as it appears Trump wishes to persue no doubt at the behest of his Muscovite masters). In some ways the 'Brexit' decision (which I do not consider wise for foreign policy reasons) has to actually involve more globalist policies. Britain is a trading nation and cannot survive without it. Nor frankly can any nation and erecting trade barriers - as any first year international economics student can tell you - is self defeating.
            Who said anything about isolationist? I said pursuing national self interest. Something German has used the EU to do for her, but something she cannot do for herself, not in the way a member of the P5 can. The EU had 2 seats on the P5 plus the US. Now she has one and has to treat with the US and UK.

            Comment


            • #97
              The Germans are not my enemies. Nor do I believe they are yours. You forfeit your leadership and expect nobody to take it up? It is to my deep regret that Theresa May is bound to the madness and lies of the Brexit campaign - and a grave mistake in my view. Britain's place on the P5 may also be jeapordised by these errors; would England alone inherit the place?

              Comment


              • #98
                Originally posted by citanon View Post
                Also, if we start talking about market distortions between the US and EU, there's about $160 billion worth every year at the moment. Maybe we should also think about those.
                Read the actual speech by Schulz by now. He's not talking sanctions, he's effectively talking a full blockade.

                “If the U.S. drops out of the climate agreement … for European trade policy, this means that American production sites don’t need to abide by the climate goals,” said the Social Democratic candidate, who was speaking at the WDR Europa Forum in Berlin. “That is a competitive distortion against which we can only protect ourselves by saying: Whoever wants to have access to our market, and the European market is the biggest market in the world, needs to respect the European standards.”
                Politico article which kinda misinterprets that.

                Comment


                • #99
                  I'm quite happy he dropped out of this. Billions to corrupt regimes all from an powerless unratified treaty, which the last admin was deceitful to try to bind us with.

                  The Latest: African nations decry US pullout from Paris pact

                  By Associated Press

                  36 minutes ago

                  WASHINGTON (AP) — The Latest on President Donald Trump's announcement that he's pulling the U.S. out of the Paris climate accord. (all times EDT):

                  8:10 a.m.

                  African nations are protesting the U.S. withdrawal from the Paris climate agreement as the world's poorest continent seeks financial help in combating global warming.

                  South Africa's government calls the U.S. pullout "an abdication of global responsibility."

                  The statement Friday by one of Africa's largest economies says the decision damages the rule of law and "trust between nations."

                  South Africa says the U.S. has a "moral obligation" to support poorer countries in the global effort against climate change.

                  ___

                  8:05 a.m.

                  India has kept mum on whether the U.S. decision to pull out of the Paris climate treaty will affect its energy policy, and Prime Minister Narendra Modi has offered no reaction to Trump's decision.

                  But on Thursday while visiting Moscow, Modi signed a joint declaration with President Vladimir Putin committing India and Russia to working on global challenges like climate change, environmental protection and clean energy through scientific discoveries.

                  And earlier in the week in Berlin, Modi said it would be a "crime" to spoil the environment for future generations.

                  ___

                  8:05 a.m.

                  British opposition politicians are accusing Prime Minister Theresa May of failing to stand up to the U.S. over its withdrawal from the Paris climate accord.

                  May's office says she spoke to President Donald Trump after his announcement and "expressed her disappointment with the decision." Downing Street says May "stressed that the U.K. remained committed to the Paris Agreement."

                  But Britain did not sign a joint statement by the leaders of Germany, France and Italy saying they regretted Trump's decision and stressing that the accord cannot be renegotiated.

                  Downing Street would not say whether May had been asked to sign it.

                  Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn accuses May of "subservience to Donald Trump."

                  Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon says not signing the declaration was an "appalling abdication of leadership."

                  ___

                  8:05 a.m.

                  The Paris mayor says she's finally found one person who doesn't like her famed city: Donald Trump.

                  Mayor Anne Hidalgo responded to the U.S. president's comments that he's pulling out of the Paris climate agreement because he was elected to represent the people of Pittsburgh, not Paris.

                  Speaking to reporters Friday, she said, "He doesn't like Paris. He must be the only person on the planet who doesn't like Paris."

                  In seriousness, she added that his comments were "not up to the level of what one would expect from a president of a great nation that we love."

                  She insists that fighting climate change can create jobs, and calls Trump "a representative of a world gone by, a world that is looking back in the rear view mirror and does not see what is happening today."

                  ___

                  8:05 a.m.

                  Germany's environment minister says "there will be no new deal with the United States" on climate change.

                  Barbara Hendricks reiterated the position Germany, France and Italy declared in a statement Thursday after President Donald Trump's announcement that he would withdraw the U.S. from the Paris climate accord.

                  Hendricks told reporters Friday in Berlin that other countries will fill the leadership void left by the United States but none will be expected to make up the shortfall in emissions reductions caused by Washington's exit.

                  She adds that the global climate will "survive" Trump's maximum presidential term of eight years.

                  ___

                  7:40 a.m.

                  Senior White House adviser Kellyanne Conway says the decision by the Trump administration to get out of the Paris climate change accords is about "fairness" to American workers and businesses.

                  Asked in a nationally broadcast interview whether President Donald Trump believes in the concept of global warming, Conway demurred, telling her interviewer to ask him.

                  "The president believes in a clean environment," she said in an appearance on Fox News Channel's "Fox & Friends" Friday.

                  "Why should we frontload so much of the economic burden in this agreement?" Conway said.

                  ___

                  7:30 a.m.

                  A Japanese government official says Japan has decided not to join Germany, France and Italy in expressing regret over the decision by President Donald Trump's to withdraw the U.S. from the Paris climate accord.

                  The official, who declined to be identified by name or affiliation and requested anonymity because he wasn't authorized to speak publicly about the decision, said that Japan chose to issue its own statement, not as part of the group. He declined to give a reason or confirm if any of the three countries had invited Japan to sign a joint statement.

                  The prime minister's office said Japan shares the importance of the accord with those countries.

                  Japan's Foreign Ministry in a statement earlier Friday said the U.S. withdrawal decision was "regrettable" but hoped to explore ways to cooperate with Washington to address the climate change issues.

                  --By Mari Yamaguchi in Tokyo.

                  ___

                  7 a.m.

                  A top atmospheric scientist at the U.N.'s weather agency says the "worst-case scenario" caused by the planned U.S. pullout from the Paris climate deal would be a further 0.3-degree Celsius (0.5 Fahrenheit) rise in global temperatures by 2100.

                  Deon Terblanche of the World Meteorological Organization says many factors affect temperatures, so an additional 0.3-percent increase from the possible U.S. pullout is "probably not what will happen."

                  He said Friday that the organization hasn't run any new scientific models following U.S. President Donald Trump's announcement that U.S. would pull out of the Paris accord.

                  The 2015 Paris agreement aims to prevent the Earth from heating up by any more than 2 degrees Celsius (3.6 degrees Fahrenheit) by the end of the century, compared to before the start of the industrial age.

                  ___

                  6:50 a.m.

                  U.S. taxpayers aren't the only ones pitching in to a global fund to help poor countries cope with rising seas and fight climate change.

                  President Donald Trump wants to stop contributing to the U.N.-managed Green Climate Fund, claiming that "nobody else is even close" to the $1 billion the U.S. has paid so far.

                  Yet other governments with smaller economies than the U.S. have invested significant amounts too.

                  The fund now has $694 million from Japan, $515 million from Britain, $460 million from Sweden and $420 million from Germany, in addition to contributions from dozens of other countries.

                  And per capita, some countries are promising much more than the U.S.

                  The U.S. pledges so far — including the $1 billion already paid and $2 billion promised by the Obama administration — add up to $9 per American, compared to $60 pledged from every Swede and $50 pledged from each Norwegian.

                  That's according to figures from the Seoul-based fund, meant to channel money to help poor countries fight and handle climate change.

                  ___

                  6:30 a.m.

                  A former U.N. special envoy on climate change says the U.S. decision to pull out of the Paris climate deal renders the country "a rogue state on the international stage."

                  Mary Robinson spoke as part of a group of global leaders known as The Elders.

                  In their statement released Friday, former U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan calls climate change "the great existentialist threat of our time" and that the U.S. withdrawal weakens the Paris accord.

                  However, he said it does not "trigger its demise."

                  In the statement, The Elders also call on U.S. states and businesses to take action where the federal government has withdrawn. They also say the U.S. pullout weakens developing nations' trust in developed countries over who will fund the billions of dollars needed to combat climate change worldwide.

                  ___

                  6:15 a.m.

                  The price of oil has fallen sharply as investors bet that President Donald Trump's decision to pull the United States out of the Paris climate agreement will increase the country's oil and gas production.

                  The international benchmark for crude oil was down 3 percent, or $1.49 a barrel, at $49.14 on Friday.

                  Analysts at German bank Commerzbank said in light of Trump's decision that it now expects the U.S. to expand its oil production "even more sharply." U.S. oil production has been increasing in recent months since the price of crude came off lows last year.

                  The increase in U.S. production is neutralizing the efforts of the OPEC cartel and other major oil-producing nations, like Russia, which are limiting their output in the hope of supporting prices.

                  ___

                  5:55 a.m.

                  Dozens of Greenpeace supporters gathered at the gates of the United States embassy in the Spanish capital to protest President Donald Trump's decision to pull the U.S. out of the Paris climate agreement.

                  Protesters said that Trump was becoming a "global threat" and "harming the planet" in signs they held Friday morning at the entrance of the embassy in central Madrid.

                  Greenpeace's director in Spain Mario Rodriguez said Thursday's announcement will require U.S. civil society and companies — as well as the rest of the world — to work harder to fight global warming.

                  "The battle against climate change is irreversible," Rodriguez said. "Resistance will be maintained because the United States is much more than just the White House and Trump."

                  ___

                  5:30 a.m.

                  U.N. Environment chief Erik Solheim says the decision by President Donald Trump to pull the U.S. out of the Paris climate accord "in no way brings an end to this unstoppable effort."

                  China, India, the European Union and others are already showing strong leadership, he added.

                  "A single political decision will not derail this unparalleled effort," Solheim said in a statement.

                  In a separate joint statement, the African Union and the European Union reaffirmed their commitment to the Paris accord and noted the "strong solidarity with those most vulnerable to climate change."

                  A number of African countries have expressed alarm at rising sea levels and changing weather patterns that have the potential to further disrupt the agriculture that so many on the world's poorest continent rely on to survive.

                  ___

                  5:25 a.m.

                  The leader of the country to next hold the rotating presidency of the European Union says the "very bad, very negative" decision of President Donald Trump to pull the United States out of the global climate agreement will force the 28-nation bloc to take a stronger lead on the issue.

                  Estonian Prime Minister Juri Ratas said in an interview with The Associated Press that the Paris accord "was, and still is a very important goal to achieve."

                  He stressed all EU nations are sticking together to make the deal work and expressed his doubts that any country around the world would follow Trump's lead. "I hope that the number is zero," Ratas said.

                  Estonia will take over the rotating six-month presidency from Malta at the end of the month.

                  ___

                  5:05 a.m.

                  German Chancellor Angela Merkel says the decision by President Donald Trump to withdraw the U.S. from the Paris climate accord "can't and won't stop all those of us who feel obliged to protect the planet."

                  Merkel said Friday that the announcement by Trump was "extremely regrettable and that's putting it very mildly."

                  But she told reporters in a brief statement that "it's now necessary to look forward after last night's announcement by the U.S. administration."

                  Merkel says Germany and others "will combine our forces more resolutely than ever ... to address and tackle big challenges for humanity such as climate change."

                  She adds that "we need this Paris agreement to preserve creation. Nothing can and will stop us from doing so."

                  ___

                  3:40 a.m.

                  President Donald Trump says the U.S. could try to re-enter the international climate agreement sealed in Paris if the deal were more favorable to Americans.

                  Trump indicated that wasn't a priority as he explained why he was pulling the U.S. out of the Paris accord in the first place. In a Rose Garden announcement Thursday, the president framed the decision as one made in the best interest of his country.

                  Many U.S. allies are expressing alarm over the U.S. abandoning the chief effort to slow the planet's warming. The leaders of France, Germany and Italy joined to "note with regret" the Trump decision and express doubts about any change in the accord.

                  Several of Trump's top aides also opposed the action, including his daughter Ivanka Trump
                  http://www.newser.com/article/14e38e...aris-pact.html


                  It's not a treaty, fuck the EU. Obama shouldn't have made this agreement in the first place.

                  Juncker to Trump: You can’t leave Paris climate deal ‘overnight’

                  Leaving the climate deal would take three to four years, says the Commission chief.
                  http://www.politico.eu/article/trump...eal-overnight/
                  By Janosch Delcker
                  | 6/1/17, 11:58 AM CET
                  | Updated 6/1/17, 12:03 PM CET


                  BERLIN – Ahead of President Donald Trump’s announcement on whether the U.S. will pull out of the Paris climate deal, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker warned that leaving the agreement would be a slow process, taking up to three or four years.

                  “It’s not possible that one leaves this climate agreement overnight, as some people in the United States think,” Juncker told a conference at the German foreign ministry on Thursday. “This takes three, four years — which is laid down in the agreement itself.”

                  Trump tweeted overnight that he would announce a final decision on whether the U.S. will withdraw from the agreement Thursday at 3 p.m. Washington time (9 p.m. in Brussels).

                  “The vacuum that would be created [by the U.S. dropping out of the Paris agreement] has to be filled, and Europe has aspirations for a natural leadership in this whole process,” said Juncker.

                  President Donald Trump has several options he can use to withdraw the U.S. from the Paris climate deal, and the White House has not yet detailed his plans

                  “I’m meeting tonight and tomorrow the Chinese prime minister in Brussels and we need to talk about this with the Chinese. We have explained to [President] Trump in Taormina it wouldn’t be good for the world and the U.S. if the U.S. took a step back from the world stage because vacuum will be replaced and the Chinese are pushing to take over the lead,” he said. “I’m in favor of concluding tasks together with our American partners instead of changing the setup.”

                  On Wednesday evening, Juncker said that the deal, which is backed by nearly 200 other countries, is “not only about the future of Europeans but, above all, the future of people elsewhere. Eighty-three countries run into the danger of disappearing from the surface of the earth if we don’t resolutely start the fight against climate change.”
                  Last edited by troung; 02 Jun 17,, 14:38.
                  To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                  Comment


                  • The G20 summit will be fun.

                    Comment


                    • I am loving the meltdown,

                      1. Merkel leads a nation with a declining military, she won't be "leading the free world" against ISIS, to resolve Syria, or North Korea. They wouldn't be holding Russia away without the US. "Sick burns" on huffpro and fawning propagandists masquerading as reporters won't stop the next ISIS attack in Europe, it seems the boorish anti-science US has to do that.
                      2. Musk is a crony capitalist.
                      3. Laws against free speech and restrictions against tools of self defense; Europe isn't free to the same degree we are. The Europe envy of those on the far left is unsettling.
                      4. Obama wasn't exactly taking it to dictators either. This deal would be giving third world thugs money to propagate this nonsensical cult, which is why they are all on board.

                      http://www.latimes.com/opinion/topof...601-story.html

                      Quitting Paris pact, Trump abdicates leadership of the free world


                      Trump hands leadership torch to Merkel.


                      Top of the Ticket cartoon (David Horsey / Los Angeles Times)


                      By David Horsey

                      June 2, 2017, 5:00 AM

                      California Gov. Jerry Brown is flying to China today, partially filling a huge gap in leadership left by Donald Trump who, with his withdrawal from the Paris accord on climate change, has abdicated the American president’s long-established role as leader of the free world. Brown characterized Trump’s move as “deviant behavior” and “insane” — and the governor is right.

                      Trump has turned the United States into a rogue nation. Only two other countries, Nicaragua and Syria, have refused to sign on to the Paris deal. The Department of Defense, major business leaders — including many in the oil and gas industry — Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, Energy Secretary Rick Perry and even Trump’s daughter, Ivanka, all urged Trump not to pull out of the climate change agreement, but he did it anyway. Apparently, Trump’s White House Rasputin, senior advisor Steve Bannon, and climate quacks like EPA Secretary Scott Pruitt sold him on the preposterous fallacy that the U.S. is a deeply aggrieved party in the deal.


                      Elon Musk, CEO of Tesla and SpaceX, announced on Thursday that he is carrying out his threat to leave the White House business advisory councils in reaction to Trump’s foolish move. In a tweet, Musk wrote, "Am departing presidential councils. Climate change is real. Leaving Paris is not good for America or the world.”


                      Unlike Trump, who played a master of business on TV while bankrupting his casinos and stiffing suppliers in real life, Musk is a real business genius who understands the future parameters of economic success. While Trump wheezes on about coal jobs, Musk and every other smart business leader in the world knows that alternative energy will be the driver of the global economy in the years to come. Even now, there are hundreds of thousands more Americans working in solar and wind power enterprises than in the grim and dirty coal mines.

                      The question is, how much will these growing sectors of the American economy be damaged by Trump’s bone-headed decision to fulfill a mindless campaign promise to abandon the climate deal? Will China become the leader in producing solar power hardware? Will Germany take the lead — and the profits — in wind energy? Part of the reason Brown is heading to China is to protect his state’s booming alternative energy enterprises.

                      In his speech announcing that he was pulling the U.S. out of the Paris agreement, Trump said he no longer wanted world leaders to be “laughing at us.” That is hilariously ironic. After his boorish, ignorant performance last week in meetings with European leaders, those leaders have been quite literally laughing at him. Trump imagines himself as a tough, savvy leader, but America’s allies and adversaries know a buffoon when they see one. Already, the Europeans have pledged to implement the Paris accords without America. There will be no new deal for Trump, the boastful dealmaker, to make.

                      The authoritarian regime in China will now be playing an even larger role in the world economy. Meanwhile, if anyone is the leader of the beleaguered free world, it is German Chancellor Angela Merkel. After Trump’s failure to reassert America’s commitment to come to the defense of fellow NATO members, Merkel said it is time for Europeans to “really take our fate into our own hands.”

                      In a campaign speech, Merkel said, “We have to know that we must fight for our future on our own, for our destiny as Europeans.”

                      Ukrainians may be experiencing similar feelings, given the latest revelation that, in the early days of his administration, Trump was eager to unilaterally drop economic sanctions against Russia that had been imposed as a punishment for the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

                      Under Trump, the United States can no longer be counted on to back up free societies when they are threatened by aggressive autocrats like Vladimir Putin. Under Trump, human rights are off the foreign policy agenda and thuggish dictators, like Philippines President Rodrigo Duterte, have free rein to murder their citizens. Under Trump, the U.S. has quit a rational pact to address the looming threat of climate change that is endorsed by almost all other countries on the planet.

                      There will still be American officials like Brown and other governors and mayors taking the lead on climate change. In an MSNBC interview on Thursday, Brown said he is open to convening an international meeting to forge a climate agreement between California, Mexico and Canada.

                      There will still be business leaders like Musk building the new American economy on the foundation of sustainable energy. Of green power, Musk has said, "That's the vision for the future we think is the only sensible vision for the future — and the one we're building toward.”

                      Trump, though, has abdicated leadership. He will still be acting out the role of president the way he acted on “The Apprentice,” but he will not be leading. The rest of the world and the majority of Americans will not follow this ludicrous man.

                      [email protected]

                      Follow me at @davidhorsey on Twitter



                      Last edited by troung; 02 Jun 17,, 14:46.
                      To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by troung View Post
                        2. Musk is a crony capitalist.
                        Uh, yes? Has there ever been a different opinion on that, other than among his followers?

                        Originally posted by troung View Post
                        3. Laws against free speech and restrictions against tools of self defense; Europe isn't free to the same degree we are.
                        So... not Paris, not Pittsburgh, but Portland?

                        Originally posted by troung View Post
                        this nonsensical cult
                        You realize when 7 billion people believe something that 300 million don't... then it's not the 7 billion forming the "cult"?

                        Comment


                        • The 7 billions are not a compact body.For a start,half of them can't read,while 2.5 billions don't care.
                          The whole issue is a first world issue,which is N America,Europe,the offshoots plus some Asian nations
                          The odds are in reality 7-800 millions vs 300.
                          Those who know don't speak
                          He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                          Comment


                          • kato,

                            You realize when 7 billion people believe something that 300 million don't... then it's not the 7 billion forming the "cult"?
                            sure as sh*t ain't 300 million, polling shows 70% support among registered US voters.
                            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                            Comment


                            • Yeah, i'm assuming there's at least as many as in the US spread around the rest of the world... cults rarely are restricted to a single country ;-)

                              (in Germany support for the Paris Accord was only 87% either according to surveys in early 2016 - and oddly the 13% that don't support it are less than the 16% that don't believe there is a climate change)

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