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Thread: NATO summit

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Why exactly, on both accounts? To make NATO look strong, and to make her look like a Blairist poodle?
    No. Because you do not tell your enemies that their ambitions and schemes are succeeding.

    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    NATO no longer holds the status in western continental Europe that it holds in other places or times. It's a nice to have, but not nice to get involved in too much thing, especially since the US in particular turned it into a coalition framework to project their geostrategic policies beyond NATO territory. It's not even Trump that's the key in disliking it there; Trump is at best confirmation of NATO being dead as a security guarantee.
    If that's really what you believe - and you want Europe to stay together - then you had better considerably increase defence spending to become the 'reliable partner'. Frankly though I trust the Yanks and it is in their self interest commercially and strategically to see a Europe "whole free and at peace"; if you had not noticed the transatlantic alliance won the Cold War and lead to a brief period of unequaled prosperity and peace in Europe. I am not sure I yet trust Germany on such a task without using it for her own benefit as let us face it the euro manipulation of every rule has been designed to cement German export hegemony even to the detriment of your partner nations and supposed allies. If Germany behaved more responsibly perhaps we would trust your motives more at the European level. I do not mean to denigrate Merkel's stance regarding Ukraine in any way - it has been honourable and admirable - doubtless to your personal distaste. Forgive me if I doubt German motives but wanting European leadership and getting others to believe your good intentions and support in any eventuality do not as yet come together in my view.

    The question in CEE is when Germany says it is for "Europe" do they actually mean for Germany? Kick out North Stream 2 and commit to article 5 by increasing your defence spending and behave in a non self interested manner economically all the time and others might begin to trust you. Leadership requires setting an example. The US always has.
    Last edited by snapper; 30 May 17, at 02:24.

  2. #32
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    ^ agreed with snapper above.

    given the threat of increasing Russian aggressiveness, Germany should absolutely be championing NATO because it is the only realistic security architecture for Western Europe. Germany, even in concert with France, certainly doesn't have the wherewithal or influence to come up with a new one now-- particularly since the response to the Great Recession wrecked European unity fairly comprehensively.

    if your positions match something that Putin would agree with, it's time to think about how you got to such a place.

    Dan Rather wrote some pretty good words this Memorial Day:

    We shall return...

    As a deep anxiety permeates our national and global moment, I find myself on this Memorial Day thinking back to the dark early days of World War II when victory in Europe and the Pacific was anything but assured. Our armed forces were fighting heroically and suffering great losses. Could we persevere? Would we be there for our friends and allies? General Douglas MacArthur fleeing the Philippines in perilous fashion amidst the Japanese assault in early 1942 vowed "I shall return." Two and a half years later he did. And so shall we now.

    I have walked amongst the rows of graves in military cemeteries. I have seen the ages of those who have perished in battle - so young. Such a heavy price. I have seen the toll of valor and freedom. I have seen the sacrifice of our men and women in uniform in distant, dangerous, and foreboding lands. I have seen the high cost of hubris and ineptitude from our political leaders paid for in blood by those who were called or pressed into armed service to their nation. I honor all of those who serve and perished on this solemn today. And I mourn with families who have suffered their losses.

    For all these reasons, I chose on this Memorial Day optimism for our national destiny. We have asked for so much of our citizenry and have come so far as a nation for us to falter now. This moment is a test that we have no choice but to pass. To consider any other result is too depressingly hopeless, and I firmly believe that the future is ours to shape. Wise leadership can galvanize our nation to return to the path of justice and sound judgement.

    To our allies who fear we have lost our way, I say "We shall return."
    To our adversaries and enemies who gleefully mark our chaotic state, I warn "We shall return."
    And to all of you who wonder about the future, I plead to not give up. "We shall return."
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  3. #33
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    So let me get this straight. You think that Putin hacked the US elections to get DT elected so that DT would push NATO to spend more on defense which would then act as a direct block to Russian ambitions....
    Don't forget he is pushing for the US to up its spending as well. Putin plays on such a high level its amazing. His puppet is actually calling for more military spending, while Russia cannot currently keep up with the current spending.

    Its not fair to expect the US to commit itself to national extinction to safe guard a continent that wont defend itself. Europe has 2 choices be a US or Russian vassal.
    Germany can sell off their remaining tanks safe in the knowledge that the "unreliable" allies would come to its aid.

    If any colleague of mine approached a Muscovite Ambassador and asked to use their communications systems as a 'back channel' I would have him (or her) arrested and interrogated as soon as I found out.
    You are not the President of the United States. Last I heard this latest evil involved trying to find a solution to Syria.

    Iron, (long time)
    It may very well turn out to be the case that if these countries decide to double their defense commitments -- they may just decide they might as well go all in, and walk away from a formal alliance with the US.
    Rather unlikely that Germany, down to 230 tanks, changes course in this generation. Germany hasn't seen super receptive to France's calls to back it's African neo-colonialism either.

    Why exactly, on both accounts? To make NATO look strong, and to make her look like a Blairist poodle? NATO no longer holds the status in western continental Europe that it holds in other places or times. It's a nice to have, but not nice to get involved in too much thing, especially since the US in particular turned it into a coalition framework to project their geostrategic policies beyond NATO territory. It's not even Trump that's the key in disliking it there; Trump is at best confirmation of NATO being dead as a security guarantee.
    Either there is no threat to Europe from the Russian hordes (half horde) and we can let NATO die off; or there is and the Europeans aren't worth defending.

    For Heavens sake,Sara,you know very well contacts are nothing.Everybody talks to everyone and back channels are the means to do it.Plus,you have plenty of internal infighting and intrigues.
    So no,just because some guys said officialy about Russian involvement is not relevant unless you have a political stake in the fight.Yes,of course Russia tries to influence elections.But guess what,everybody does the same.If they cannot do that,they try to influence the actual policies.Will you hold Israel ,Poland or Korea to the same standards?
    Insisting on this only serves as A.problems dealing with US and B. excuses for internal failures.
    x2 - need that like button back.
    Last edited by troung; 30 May 17, at 03:39.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    No. Because you do not tell your enemies that their ambitions and schemes are succeeding.
    That's relative if it's just stating the obvious. Do you really believe Putin and his cronies don't realize that Trump is exactly the wedge they needed to drive into NATO, just like Brexit was the wedge required for the EU?
    Claiming that we'd rely on a partner who everyone knows will betray us and who doesn't make even the slightest effort to portray it differently is ridiculous.

    The onus on Article 5 ain't on Germany, or on any non-US NATO member. We've done our Article 5 duty. October 2001. It's the Americans' turn. And unless Trump readies a deployment to Europe in case of Russian aggression equivalent to the share Europe fielded in Afghanistan (read: 40% of troops), sustained for a decade or two, his commitment to Article 5 isn't credible.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I do not mean to denigrate Merkel's stance regarding Ukraine in any way - it has been honourable and admirable - doubtless to your personal distaste.
    Just to tell you the bitter truth: Ukraine does not even register with the average German. It's a non-item. Merkel's stance on it is just what people expect - nothing more, nothing less.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    The question in CEE is when Germany says it is for "Europe" do they actually mean for Germany?
    The hard opinion on that: As long as CEE is getting around twice their defence budgets donated from WEU countries every year while having 1% of their population emigrate westwards every year it's not like their opinion on that really matters much.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    Germany hasn't seen super receptive to France's calls to back it's African neo-colonialism either.
    Germany currently has more troops in Mali than it does in the Baltics.

  6. #36
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    P.S.:

    Vice Chancellor and Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel has reinforced Merkel's speech with a bit harder lines by now. Including "anyone who does not oppose these US politics shares the guilt [for its repercussions]", "the shortsighted politics of the US government run against the interests of the European Union" and "the West is becoming smaller". The SPD - to which Gabriel belongs - also accuses Merkel of not standing up against Trump forcefully enough, considers Merkel's "pro-Trump course" to have failed and that Merkel now has to "let acts follow her words".
    Last edited by kato; 30 May 17, at 04:43.

  7. #37
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    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/58902168.cms

    India-Germany ties attract attention after Chancellor Angela Merkel’s outburst

    BERLIN: As PM Narendra Modi landed here on Monday evening, Chancellor Angela Merkel's recent outburst appears to have centred attention on the Germany-India relationship.

    Addressing an election rally in Munich on Sunday, Merkel said in remarks that have echoed around the world, "The era in which we could fully rely on others is over to some extent. That's what I experienced over the past several days."

    While the obvious target of her remarks was US President Donald Trump, and the challenges presented by Trump's potential reversal+ from the Paris climate accord, the fact that she is meeting the leaders of India and China this week has raised questions about the new weight being placed on these relationships.

    The emphasis on the Asia relationships featured prominently at the government briefings for journalists on Monday. (The entire German government, in a unique gesture, meets the press three times every week to answer questions from the media.)

    Merkel and Modi held one-on-one talks+ in her country retreat on Monday evening, which covered regional and global issues from climate change to Afghanistan and terrorism.

    Modi has clarified that India would continue on its path towards a cleaner future, regardless of what the US does. A similar message has come from China. Chinese Premier Li Keqiang will be in Berlin on Wednesday, hours after Modi's visit, to work with Germany. Senior government sources said Germany would not make their ties with India and China a "zero-sum game". However, it would be hard not to compare the two.

    For one thing, the Germany-China economic relationship is pretty deep, though both sides have been locked into long-running negotiations on an investment and trade pact, like India. Germany was much more China-positive, but this tide appears to have turned in recent years as it has expressed reservations about China's predatory trading practices. Although Germany sent an official-level delegation to the OBOR summit, it has asked for the OBOR process to be made more transparent, in accordance with WTO.

    Germany reckons that in a fair competition, German companies would have a good chance of winning contracts in OBOR projects. China, while professing free trade, has shown all signs of reserving these projects for Chinese companies.

    But it's too soon to imagine that Germany would be pivoting away from its Atlantic relationship. As the German government spokesperson said on Monday, Merkel remained a committed Atlanticist. "Because transatlantic relations are so important to the chancellor, she also believes that it's the right thing to do to frankly point out differences — like those that emerged during the last couple of days," spokesman Steffen Seibert said at a press briefing.


    "The chancellor's words were clear and understandable and speak for themselves," Seibert said. "They were the words of a most deeply committed Atlanticist."

    The Germany-India relationship, according to sources in India and Germany, would need a lot of work, particularly from India. If Merkel is troubled by Trump's retreat from free trade ideals, Germany's beef with India is that New Delhi is not yet committed to free trade. The issues with India's trade policies will come up for airing on Tuesday when Modi and Merkel address a session of CEOs as part of the inter-governmental consultations.

  8. #38

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    Please calm down. Merkel don't told that Germany leaves NATO or something else, only that Donald Trump isn't the reliable Patner she wants. Thats her opinion and after all the nasty things Trump said about Germany and his doings I think he deserves this judgment for now. And hey, the EU is in a difficult time. A common opponent (i mean opponent not enemy) sometimes is all you need to close the rows...If she succeed then why not?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    If any colleague of mine approached a Muscovite Ambassador and asked to use their communications systems as a 'back channel' I would have him (or her) arrested and interrogated as soon as I found out. Most importantly I would want to know who or what motive prompted such potentially treasonous action. Even it transpired there was an honest and appropriate reason for this extraordinary behaviour I would never trust that person again. That is not normal. Sure we all "know people who know people" who can deliver a message if required - though I have never seen fit to do so personally and usually it is not my call to make - but what Kushner is alleged to have done; that is offering to commit treason as in the first place it compromises the person making the request.
    And you don't have reasons for doubt? Here's the case.Trump was and will be under attack for his isolationist streak.And for beating liberals just when they believed to win.As a person is not relevant.As a symbol of a movement he is important in US internal politics.
    The only time when he got some slack was after the Syria bombing,which pretty much proves my case.

    Kushner,for all intents and purposes is likely an infiltrator in his camp.

    As for establishing contacts,that is indeed not a decision for the likes of LT's and CPT's but it is a legit tool of the trade.Let's not play outraged just because some "sources" and political players try to give a sinister motive .
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  10. #40
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    Germany should think twice about sharing secrets with US because Donald Trump's team 'chatter too much', MP says

    President's handling of classified information described as a 'security risk for the West'


    Germany should reconsider sharing intelligence with the United States, because Donald Trump and his administration "chatter too much" and could give critical information to Russia, a German MP has warned.

    Thomas Opperman, the leader of the Social Democrats (SDP), described Mr Trump's handling of classified information a "security risk for the West".

    It comes after Angela Merkel suggested Germany and Europe can no longer rely on the US under Mr Trump.

    Speaking at a campaign event held in a Bavarian beer tent, the German Chancellor emphasised the need for friendly relations with the US, Britain and Russia, but added: “We Europeans must really take our destiny into our own hands.”

    Ms Merkel said that as the traditional western alliance is threatened by the new US presidency and Brexit, “the times in which we can fully count on others are somewhat over".

    Mr Opperman, whose party is in a coalition with Ms Merkel's in the German parliament, said the intelligence services must be clever about sharing information with the US.

    He told several German newspapers: “I have an impression that Donald Trump and his team chatter too much."

    He added: “It should be taken into account that Trump is a president who, one should assume, passes critical information to Russian representatives.

    “This is a dangerous situation. It cannot continue as it is. This endangers the information exchange and can be dangerous for both sides."

    It comes after Mr Trump was accused of leaking highly classified information about Isis during his meeting with the Russian Foreign Minister, Sergey Lavrov.

    The Russian President, Vladimir Putin, dismissed the scandal as "political schizophrenia".

    Mr Trump went on to insist he has the "absolute right" to share "facts pertaining to terrorism and airline flight safety" with Russia.

    It led a senior German politician to call the President "a security risk to the Western world".

    Burkhard Lischka, who sits on the Bundestag’s intelligence oversight committee, said: “If it proves to be true that the American president passed on internal intelligence matters that would be highly worrying."

    A spokesman for Ms Merkel said she was right to confront Mr Trump over the need to tackle climate change.

    Steffen Seibert said the German Chancellor remained committed to strong trans-Atlantic relations, but her suggestion after meetings with Mr Trump that Europe can no longer entirely rely on the US “speaks for itself”.

    “[US-German relations] are a strong pillar of our foreign and security policy, and Germany will continue working to strengthen these relations.

    “Precisely because they are so important, it's right to name differences honestly.”
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7761831.html

    Merkel hosts Indian leader Modi, looks to broaden world ties

    BERLIN — The leaders of Germany and India heaped mutual praise upon each other Tuesday — each referring to the other as a “reliable partner” in a notable contrast to Chancellor Angela Merkel’s recent public doubts about Germany’s ties with the United States.

    Merkel suggested that Europe’s relationship with the U.S. had shifted significantly following last week’s NATO and G-7 meetings with President Donald Trump that produced disappointing results, saying Saturday that “the times in which we can fully count on others are somewhat over, as I have experienced in the past few days.”

    Asked Tuesday whether her meetings with senior officials from India and China this week signaled a pivot away from Germany’s old ally in Washington, Merkel sought to dampen speculation of a major rift.

    “The trans-Atlantic partnership is of outstanding importance and what I said was merely meant to note that in view of the current situation there are more reasons ... for us in Europe to take our fate into our own hands,” Merkel told reporters in Berlin.

    Speaking after a meeting with India’s Prime Minister Narendra Modi, she went out of her way to laud the South Asian country as a “reliable partner” on major projects and noted that India was working hard to implement the 2015 Paris Climate Agreement.

    “India wants the world not just to be interconnected but also that it should be sensibly run,” Merkel said, backing European Union talks for a trade agreement with India.

    Climate and trade were the two main issue of contention between the United States and other members at the G-7 summit of major economies in Sicily last week, and the topics look set to flare up again soon.

    Trump criticized Germany’s trade surplus with the United States on Tuesday, tying the issue to Berlin’s military spending.

    “We have a MASSIVE trade deficit with Germany, plus they pay FAR LESS than they should on NATO & military. Very bad for U.S. This will change,” he tweeted.

    “Donald Trump is making clear with his tweet that he considers Germany a political opponent,” said Thomas Oppermann, the parliamentary caucus leader of the Social Democrats, the junior partners in Merkel’s coalition government. “This is a new situation — we lived for decades in the certainty that we could rely on each other as partners in an alliance, and this certainty no longer exists today.”

    Trump has also said he plans to make a decision this week on whether to withdraw the United States from the Paris accord — widely considered a key achievement of the Obama administration and a necessary measure if the world wants to avoid a sharp rise in global temperatures.

    For his part, Modi declared that “the world needs a strong leadership, which is demonstrated by Chancellor Merkel.”

    “Germany is a large, reliable and trustworthy partner for us,” he added.

    Merkel is scheduled to meet with China’s Prime Minister Li Keqiang on Wednesday.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.9049b0449411

  11. #41
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    German SPD leader calls Trump a 'destroyer of all Western values'

    Germany's centre-left chancellor candidate Martin Schulz on Tuesday accused U.S. President Donald Trump of destroying Western values and undermining international cooperation.

    Speaking to reporters in Berlin, Schulz said Trump was "the destroyer of all Western values", adding that the U.S. president was undermining the peaceful cooperation of nations based on mutual respect and tolerance.

    "One must stand in the way of such a man with his ideology of rearmament," Schulz added.

    Trump criticized Germany earlier on Tuesday for its trade surplus and military spending levels, a day after Chancellor Angela Merkel rammed home her doubts about the reliability of the United States as an ally.

    In a tweet, Trump said: "We have a MASSIVE trade deficit with Germany, plus they pay FAR LESS than they should on NATO & military. Very bad for U.S. This will change."

    (Reporting by Matthias Sobolewski; Writing by Michael Nienaber; Editing by Paul Carrel)
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us...KBN18Q1HF?il=0

    Btw:
    In a poll conducted in February, 78 percent of Germans said they were “very concerned” about Trump's policies — almost 20 percent more than those who were worried about the politics of Russian President Vladimir Putin.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.7e6e02f2038c
    Last edited by kato; 30 May 17, at 14:48.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    That's relative if it's just stating the obvious. Do you really believe Putin and his cronies don't realize that Trump is exactly the wedge they needed to drive into NATO, just like Brexit was the wedge required for the EU?
    Claiming that we'd rely on a partner who everyone knows will betray us and who doesn't make even the slightest effort to portray it differently is ridiculous.

    The onus on Article 5 ain't on Germany, or on any non-US NATO member. We've done our Article 5 duty. October 2001. It's the Americans' turn. And unless Trump readies a deployment to Europe in case of Russian aggression equivalent to the share Europe fielded in Afghanistan (read: 40% of troops), sustained for a decade or two, his commitment to Article 5 isn't credible.
    It is your right to think such things but neither I nor you know what "Putin and his cronies don't realize"; I personally would not be so stupid as to inform of anything - even during a campaign speech.

    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Just to tell you the bitter truth: Ukraine does not even register with the average German. It's a non-item. Merkel's stance on it is just what people expect - nothing more, nothing less.
    Leading by example is sometimes about committing to matters that are not of public concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    The hard opinion on that: As long as CEE is getting around twice their defence budgets donated from WEU countries every year while having 1% of their population emigrate westwards every year it's not like their opinion on that really matters much.
    No other country contributes to the Polish defence budget which does meet the 2% of GDP agreed by all in Wales and Warsawa.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Kushner,for all intents and purposes is likely an infiltrator in his camp.

    When you as many 'infiltrators in the camp' as Trump has had it is natural to recongnise a pattern and why Trump would appoint so many 'infiltrators'. Not to investigate this would be a dereliction of duty particularly bearing mind the agreement of all US security agencies that there was a Muscovite attempt to influence the US election in Trumps favour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    As for establishing contacts,that is indeed not a decision for the likes of LT's and CPT's but it is a legit tool of the trade.Let's not play outraged just because some "sources" and political players try to give a sinister motive .
    Why were none of these contacts admitted when it came to security clearances? Sure as hell Kushner would never got any form of security clearance had this been known. Not sure if he still has now but if he has it should be removed and he interrogated without bail.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    No other country contributes to the Polish defence budget which does meet the 2% of GDP agreed by all in Wales and Warsawa.
    During 2017 the Polish defence budget amounts to 8.93 billion Euro (source).
    During 2017 the EU payouts to Poland amount to a net intake of 9.64 billion Euro (source).
    In other words: EU money pays for the money that Poland saves to invest in defence. Entirely. And beyond.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    That's relative if it's just stating the obvious. Do you really believe Putin and his cronies don't realize that Trump is exactly the wedge they needed to drive into NATO, just like Brexit was the wedge required for the EU?
    Claiming that we'd rely on a partner who everyone knows will betray us and who doesn't make even the slightest effort to portray it differently is ridiculous.

    The onus on Article 5 ain't on Germany, or on any non-US NATO member. We've done our Article 5 duty. October 2001. It's the Americans' turn. And unless Trump readies a deployment to Europe in case of Russian aggression equivalent to the share Europe fielded in Afghanistan (read: 40% of troops), sustained for a decade or two, his commitment to Article 5 isn't credible.


    Just to tell you the bitter truth: Ukraine does not even register with the average German. It's a non-item. Merkel's stance on it is just what people expect - nothing more, nothing less.


    The hard opinion on that: As long as CEE is getting around twice their defence budgets donated from WEU countries every year while having 1% of their population emigrate westwards every year it's not like their opinion on that really matters much.
    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    During 2017 the Polish defence budget amounts to 8.93 billion Euro (source).
    During 2017 the EU payouts to Poland amount to a net intake of 9.64 billion Euro (source).
    In other words: EU money pays for the money that Poland saves to invest in defence. Entirely. And beyond.
    Kato,

    Perhaps Trump is really setting you off, because you're starting to sound like an over privileged high schooler in the 3rd round of a debate session.

    Your troop deployment in Afghanistan on the same scales as 70 years of US commitment to Europe?

    Arguing that general funding support to an EU member is the same as paying for all of their defense?

    Really??? These sophistic and disingenuous arguments are subpar than what I've come to expect from you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post

    The onus on Article 5 ain't on Germany, or on any non-US NATO member. We've done our Article 5 duty. October 2001. It's the Americans' turn. And unless Trump readies a deployment to Europe in case of Russian aggression equivalent to the share Europe fielded in Afghanistan (read: 40% of troops), sustained for a decade or two, his commitment to Article 5 isn't credible.

    .
    is this even a half serious comment?

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