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  • GVChamp,

    That's not surprising with the environment becoming such a huge partisan issue, but Republicans don't want to drink lead and don't want to breathe in particulate matter. We even like trees! Our neighborhoods are all lined with them. At the state level, a lot of R-Midwest states have renewable energy mandates, and Utah has at least made noises about cleaning up some of their garbage. So I think there remains a lot of possible middle ground, even if it won't get accomplished in the next 4 years.
    so again, the national GOP has little interest in the environment, with this current administration having zero interest whatsoever.

    and at the state level, at least for certain red states, there may be some more flexibility. color me not particularly impressed by such a record of environmentalism. :P

    in any case, your argument is close to citanon's; there may be moderate Republicans here and there interested in environmental protection, but any actual legislation, particularly on the national level, will need to be driven by Democrats.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    • Originally posted by astralis View Post
      GVChamp,



      so again, the national GOP has little interest in the environment, with this current administration having zero interest whatsoever.
      What? Did not Trump proclaim that no one cares about the environment more than him? Of course, according to him no one cares more than him about anything. However, since he has been lying since he started in real estate and no doubt believes a lie a day keeps the doctor away I guess I need to get out my grain of salt.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by astralis View Post
        GVChamp,



        so again, the national GOP has little interest in the environment, with this current administration having zero interest whatsoever.

        and at the state level, at least for certain red states, there may be some more flexibility. color me not particularly impressed by such a record of environmentalism. :P

        in any case, your argument is close to citanon's; there may be moderate Republicans here and there interested in environmental protection, but any actual legislation, particularly on the national level, will need to be driven by Democrats.
        Fair summary of the current state. Median Democrat voters seem to think median Republican voters are mustache-twirling super-villains that like to dump toxic waste into orphanages.

        I still tell them they should show the gas companies who is boss and turn off the pipelines to their homes. Mother Earth will keep them warm in January. :) Or better yet, they could get one of those solar roofs that "pays for itself." Bwahahahahahahaha.
        "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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        • http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/09/politi...e-5/index.html

          so in the end, Trump commits to Article 5 anyways...after pissing everyone off and reducing US credibility.

          and how much more money did this genius of a negotiator wring out of the Europeans for doing all this?
          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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          • Signaled our displeasure with their penny pinching, and evidently caused a nice freak out among the screeching class.

            He can't fix all the mistakes of the last eight years in a day.
            To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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            • Originally posted by astralis View Post
              http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/09/politi...e-5/index.html

              so in the end, Trump commits to Article 5 anyways...after pissing everyone off and reducing US credibility.
              that's never been in question.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by bfng3569 View Post
                that's never been in question.
                The part where he pisses people off and reduces US credibility? Yeah.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by kato View Post
                  The part where he pisses people off and reduces US credibility? Yeah.
                  C'mon. This is very, very simple. There are some Euros who really believe that their mere presence sanctifies the proceedings beyond the need to pay their fair share.

                  Still, it's not well-mannered to call out the free-loaders for what they are despite it being exceedingly old news. We've had the same issues when the minimum was 3% yet the threat was far more readily visible.
                  "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                  "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                  • Certainly and all have agreed (in Wales and in Warsawa NATO meetings) to 'get there' but moaning at people to fulfill the commitments they have already agreed to fulfill while not categorically endorsing Article 5 and not even mentioning Muscovy (even in private) is not entirely adding to your case.

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                    • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                      Certainly and all have agreed (in Wales and in Warsawa NATO meetings) to 'get there' but moaning at people to fulfill the commitments they have already agreed to fulfill while not categorically endorsing Article 5 and not even mentioning Muscovy (even in private) is not entirely adding to your case.
                      What case would that be? After underwriting NATO from inception I'm not sure what case America needs to make for itself. Is there some part of stationing four divisions, their families, the log infrastructure and one hell of a lot of USAF guys for the vast majority of NATO's 72 year existence right where they were most needed that doesn't buy us the CREDIBILITY to call out the tight-wad slackers?

                      And…as this has been a LONG-STANDING issue, not one of recent and temporal contrivance, should not anytime be just fine to make this point out in the light of day, publicly? Niceties can be set aside, I'm certain, when national security is at stake and an issue of great import is resurrected from a conveniently long-buried status.

                      We need to call out Muscovy? America isn't your problem in that regard. Are you suggesting that Germany has been leading the backlash (such as it is) against Russia?
                      "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                      "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by S2 View Post
                        What case would that be? After underwriting NATO from inception I'm not sure what case America needs to make for itself. Is there some part of stationing four divisions, their families, the log infrastructure and one hell of a lot of USAF guys for the vast majority of NATO's 72 year existence right where they were most needed that doesn't buy us the CREDIBILITY to call out the tight-wad slackers?

                        And…as this has been a LONG-STANDING issue, not one of recent and temporal contrivance, should not anytime be just fine to make this point out in the light of day, publicly? Niceties can be set aside, I'm certain, when national security is at stake and an issue of great import is resurrected from a conveniently long-buried status.
                        Sir, I do not deny the justice of your words; certainly the US has a right to expect it's European allies to fulfill their committments. I have never argued anything less on this forum or anywhere else. In fact in some countries (not only Ukraine) I have advised for greater than 2% defence spending.

                        The question is what was Trump's intention? A tricky one as one can never really 'know' these things yet we require 'mens rea' to be established in some criminal cases so it is accepted it can be implied by words and actions.

                        You I think assume that Trumps intention was to encourage the allies not fulfilling their commitments to do so. Perhaps it was but when he did not make a categorical endorsement of Article 5 or even mention the elephant in the room (and his Presidency) I have to question his intention in disparing them - although on the face of it he was entirely justified in doing so. If he had actually wanted them to 'stump up' he would have said "It you lot that is threatened by Moscow - we are here as our interests and yours coincide as they have done since the alliance started and will help but you have to do alot more". I must suspect therefore that his intention - his motive - was to score a few points for 'looking strong' at home and not to annoy Moscow - for reasons of his own.

                        Originally posted by S2 View Post
                        We need to call out Muscovy? America isn't your problem in that regard. Are you suggesting that Germany has been leading the backlash (such as it is) against Russia?
                        It would be novel if Trump did call out Muscovy. I am not holding my breath.

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                        • Originally posted by kato View Post
                          The part where he pisses people off and reduces US credibility? Yeah.
                          are we reviewing the previous administration here?

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                          • you realize the ultimate judge of how credible the US is towards her allies would be...our allies, yes?
                            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                              • So...seems the confidence level of our allies about our president now approaches what's been my long-standing sense of confidence about them as warfighters?

                                These "contributors" have an agenda of deflection when questioning our reliability in the face of the highly visible, long-standing monetary evidence that speaks otherwise for both sides. We pay. We forward-station troops.

                                They do nothing of the sort.

                                I could give a fcuk what they think of Trump. I do care what they think of their own self-defense and why they believe I should continue reliably underwriting that expense. That issue shall evidently remain long after Trump has passed.
                                "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                                "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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