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  • Originally posted by zraver View Post
    Indian Muslims are mostly sufi, salafist traditions were mostly in Pakistan when partition happened as salafism is a better fit for tribal based societies and sufism has more appeal to those who grew up in a society defined by religiously defined class.

    The failure to distinguish between salafist and sufi schools of Sunni Islam gives jihadis and their supporters space too hide in the West.
    Tell me more. You are speaking authoritatively, so I have to ask if you've been there yourself and observed things firsthand, or are merely offering conjecture and interpretations based on something you've read.

    That being said, there is a problem, which is that the Saudis have been funneling billions of their oil money into proslyetization of their radical sect, and indoctrinating youths in countries across the world for decades now. Many in the West have come to equate Islam with Wahabbism, and even retroactively conflated the entirety of Islam and its history with a sect that was virtually unknown on the world stage until after WWII.

    Until the post-war period, Wahhabism was just a particularly odd sect hailing from the deep interior of Arabia, whom then happened to take Mecca/Medina from the Hashemites in the 1920s, and later were found to be living on top of massive deposits of oil. Now they have spent tens billions indoctrinating tens of millions of youths in desperately poor countries. This is the problem. Not Islam itself.
    "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Ironduke View Post

      That being said, there is a problem, which is that the Saudis have been funneling billions of their oil money into proslyetization of their radical sect, and indoctrinating youths in countries across the world for decades now. Many in the West have come to equate Islam with Wahabbism, and even retroactively conflated the entirety of Islam and its history with a sect that was virtually unknown on the world stage until after WWII.

      Until the post-war period, Wahhabism was just a particularly odd sect hailing from the deep interior of Arabia, whom then happened to take Mecca/Medina from the Hashemites in the 1920s, and later were found to be living on top of massive deposits of oil. Now they have spent tens billions indoctrinating tens of millions of youths in desperately poor countries. This is the problem. Not Islam itself.
      The trouble is that a certain percentage of muslims, just conjecture on my part, but say anywhere from 1 to 10 percent has been indoctrinated by Wahhabism to varying degrees. While even most Wahhabists are not violent people, from this minority of muslims, the violent extremists ISIS, Al Qaeda, the Taliban and their like find potentially tens of thousands of recruits for their global religious war.

      Given the large muslim populations, in the millions that have emigrated to Western countries, we could be looking at thousands of potential radicals in Western societies that could lead to terrorist attacks like the one in Manchester happening more and more frequently. Even if the overwhelming majorities of muslims are normal people and peaceful, I think that is irrelevant given the nature of the threat we face.

      While I hate the idea of peaceful muslims being persecuted or having their civil rights violated, if attacks like this remain commonplace the political pressure to do something is going to become irresistible.
      Last edited by InExile; 28 May 17,, 06:51.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by InfiniteDreams View Post
        Is it me or did she have that speech / rant prepared in advance???

        Comment


        • I know, Ironduke, how you feel and how much anger these things are causing in you and ones similar to you. I don't blame you, defending the stance where you prefer to live in a orderly society that is just to everyone, that respects human beings, that gives equal opportunity to everyone regardless of their individual characteristics, race, gender, race, religion, ethnicity etc is a noble and virtuous stance to take. It is fair, just and it is good and when you have the powerful country, the most powerful country in the world build on these principles behind your back, it serves as a testament, a proof that those ideas that you hold so dear, work. That they work not just as an abstract, as an idea and values, but also they work in reality. You like it and you don't want it to vanish, because it is good. It is good, no shadow of a doubt about that.

          When I first heard about KLA in 1997, I thought that it was a product of fiction, made up by Milosevic, that had a sole purpose to keep him in power. In 1998 I knew that they were real but as our media portrayed them they were extremists groups that occasionally clash with the police and that our security forces have them under control. In 1999 my unit got the mission, to eliminate two KLA brigades. It came as a shock to me, because why would we get the mission in a peace time? Our rules of engagement do not allow usage of military during the peace times. Those were my thoughts as we were boarding the trucks at 5 am in the morning. When we boarded, the sarge came with two crates, delivered them to our truck and said "Load them up, boys". As I was loading my magazines, a strange numbness grasped me, it was serious, deadly serious. It was real deal. When we reached Kosovo it was clear as day, Kosovo was a war zone, full blown war zone and those groups well, they were an army of 40.000 strong and my unit had 96 men at the time of deployment.

          I don't want these things to happen to anyone anymore. If there is a problem, problem needs to be addressed properly, regardless how ugly it is. So what is the truth? Is it the one that there are radicals with their insanity that cause problems or that there is an secret empire resurrected with an army of 200 million men, currently fighting globally for its domination?
          Last edited by Versus; 28 May 17,, 11:58.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by InExile View Post
            The trouble is that a certain percentage of muslims, just conjecture on my part, but say anywhere from 1 to 10 percent has been indoctrinated by Wahhabism to varying degrees. While even most Wahhabists are not violent people, from this minority of muslims, the violent extremists ISIS, Al Qaeda, the Taliban and their like find potentially tens of thousands of recruits for their global religious war.

            Given the large muslim populations, in the millions that have emigrated to Western countries, we could be looking at thousands of potential radicals in Western societies that could lead to terrorist attacks like the one in Manchester happening more and more frequently. Even if the overwhelming majorities of muslims are normal people and peaceful, I think that is irrelevant given the nature of the threat we face.

            While I hate the idea of peaceful muslims being persecuted or having their civil rights violated, if attacks like this remain commonplace the political pressure to do something is going to become irresistible.
            Something between one and ten percent of 1910s Southern "Christians" were indoctrinated into the KKK. Given the extent of the threat they posed to Catholics, Jews, Blacks and others, ... Nah, that kind of "you people are all the same and all deserve to be guilty until proven (ha!) otherwise" BIGOTRY is simply unAmerican.

            We judge people individually. It's in the Constitution.
            Trust me?
            I'm an economist!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DOR View Post

              We judge people individually.
              me too....and yet a large percentage of people behave like cattle.

              Comment


              • So, how much did the Manchester Muslims raised for the victims of bombing attack? I mean, its not like they don't have the cash.

                http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7759921.html

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Versus View Post
                  So, how much did the Manchester Muslims raised for the victims of bombing attack? I mean, its not like they don't have the cash.

                  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7759921.html
                  Here's one

                  https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfund...hester-victims
                  By the way I found out on Friday that two close friends were picking up children that night and arrived minutes after the bomb went off........they were wading in blood and limbs....it was horrific...ambulances hadn't arrived yet and the scene was carnage in the foyer. Luckily the kids didn't see it and made their way out through another exit. Unfortunately both mums did and are still trying to come to terms with what they walked into.There was alot more said. But I don't want to get into that
                  Last edited by Toby; 28 May 17,, 20:49.

                  Comment


                  • Yea, I know what you are talking about. Seen it and what is worse, smell it.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DOR View Post
                      Something between one and ten percent of 1910s Southern "Christians" were indoctrinated into the KKK. Given the extent of the threat they posed to Catholics, Jews, Blacks and others, ... Nah, that kind of "you people are all the same and all deserve to be guilty until proven (ha!) otherwise" BIGOTRY is simply unAmerican.

                      We judge people individually. It's in the Constitution.
                      You put the Japs into camps and Indians in the grave or reservations.Those were both collective and correct actions.
                      You judge your own by the constitution and laws.You don't judge foreign enemmies by those standards.And just because a piece of paper says so,they aren't Brits,French,Germans etc...

                      The crux of the matter is simple.You choose to see the trees.Seeing the forrest gives you another perspective.
                      Those who know don't speak
                      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                        You put the Japs into camps and Indians in the grave or reservations.Those were both collective and correct actions.
                        You judge your own by the constitution and laws.You don't judge foreign enemmies by those standards.And just because a piece of paper says so,they aren't Brits,French,Germans etc...

                        The crux of the matter is simple.You choose to see the trees.Seeing the forrest gives you another perspective.
                        I refuse to discuss this with someone who believes genocide is a "correct action."
                        Trust me?
                        I'm an economist!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DOR View Post
                          Something between one and ten percent of 1910s Southern "Christians" were indoctrinated into the KKK. Given the extent of the threat they posed to Catholics, Jews, Blacks and others, ... Nah, that kind of "you people are all the same and all deserve to be guilty until proven (ha!) otherwise" BIGOTRY is simply unAmerican.

                          We judge people individually. It's in the Constitution.
                          But we are not talking about American Jihad, American values and beliefs.

                          "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!”.
                          Last edited by Versus; 29 May 17,, 08:49.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Versus View Post
                            "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!”.
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                            http://www.wellarmedlamb.net/Lamb/Main.html

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                            • Originally posted by DOR View Post
                              I refuse to discuss this with someone who believes genocide is a "correct action."

                              I generally have nothing to discuss with lefties,but what genocide are you talking about?
                              Those who know don't speak
                              He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Versus View Post
                                I know, Ironduke, how you feel and how much anger these things are causing in you and ones similar to you. I don't blame you, defending the stance where you prefer to live in a orderly society that is just to everyone, that respects human beings, that gives equal opportunity to everyone regardless of their individual characteristics, race, gender, race, religion, ethnicity etc is a noble and virtuous stance to take. It is fair, just and it is good and when you have the powerful country, the most powerful country in the world build on these principles behind your back, it serves as a testament, a proof that those ideas that you hold so dear, work. That they work not just as an abstract, as an idea and values, but also they work in reality. You like it and you don't want it to vanish, because it is good. It is good, no shadow of a doubt about that.
                                You don't have me figured out at all.

                                I'm not walking around angry because of how people like InExile act and think, and going out of my way on some mission to treat people like people, including Muslims I happen upon, because of some ideological belief. I am not engaged in outreach at all.

                                This is not a calculated or foreplanned approach, borne of ideological conviction, that I utilize. I just do it because it's a completely ordinary and normal thing to do.

                                If an individual's actions give me cause to regard them poorly, then and only then do I regard or treat them poorly. Calculation and forethought may then come into play. But not before then.
                                Last edited by Ironduke; 29 May 17,, 15:50.
                                "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

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