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  • #76
    Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
    The Constitution still makes no distinction between a President or Vice President in the matter of impeachment. It stands to reason that if the Constitution precluded the indictment of a President, Vice President, or Civil Officer while they occupied their offices, previous indictments that have transpired would not have occurred.
    The VP is not the head of state. To allow removal of office by indictment means any congress could pass a law and remove a president without needing a 2/3 super majority twice as spelled out in the Constitution. Thats a coup.

    Comment


    • #77
      The Jesuits had a handy interpretation for INRI; "Justum Necare Regis Impius".

      Comment


      • #78
        Regarding the ability to indict a sitting president.

        AAG for Legal Counsel was asked and answered in 1973

        https://biotech.law.lsu.edu/blaw/olc..._president.htm

        Here is the money shot.

        In 1973, the Department of Justice concluded that the indictment and criminal prosecution of a sitting President would unduly interfere with the ability of the executive branch to perform its constitutionally assigned duties, and would thus violate the constitutional separation of powers. No court has addressed this question directly, but the judicial precedents that bear on the continuing validity of our constitutional analysis are consistent with both the analytic approach taken and the conclusions reached. Our view remains that a sitting President is constitutionally immune from indictment and criminal prosecution.


        Randolph D. Moss
        Assistant Attorney General
        Office of Legal Counsel
        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
        Mark Twain

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        • #79
          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          The Jesuits had a handy interpretation for INRI; "Justum Necare Regis Impius".
          They also burned people at the stake and forced mass conversions of Native Americans. Never mind that Trump is not heretical, we should not be taking advice from anyone whose purpose on creation was to enforce the will of an autocrat.

          Comment


          • #80
            Regarding the ability to indict a sitting president.

            AAG for Legal Counsel was asked and answered in 1973

            https://biotech.law.lsu.edu/blaw/olc..._president.htm

            Here is the money shot.

            In 1973, the Department of Justice concluded that the indictment and criminal prosecution of a sitting President would unduly interfere with the ability of the executive branch to perform its constitutionally assigned duties, and would thus violate the constitutional separation of powers. No court has addressed this question directly, but the judicial precedents that bear on the continuing validity of our constitutional analysis are consistent with both the analytic approach taken and the conclusions reached. Our view remains that a sitting President is constitutionally immune from indictment and criminal prosecution.


            Randolph D. Moss
            Assistant Attorney General
            Office of Legal Counsel
            my guess is that if the situation ever happened, this would shoot up to the Supreme Court so fast it'd make our heads spin. there's enough legal arguments either way to keep the lawyers well paid for some time.
            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by zraver View Post
              They also burned people at the stake and forced mass conversions of Native Americans. Never mind that Trump is not heretical, we should not be taking advice from anyone whose purpose on creation was to enforce the will of an autocrat.
              If you think Trump gives a hoot about religion or the Church you are a fool.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by snapper View Post
                If you think Trump gives a hoot about religion or the Church you are a fool.
                You are the fool to cite a saying that has no bearing on this conversation and no legal nor moral authority to dictate on how the Americans should act. You are an observer, not an American citizen. You have no right to tell the Americans how to treat their own President whom they voted for.

                Their House. Their Rules. Live with it.
                Chimo

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                • #83
                  The Jesuit Mission was universal - hence Guy Fawkes but I am not a Jesuit, more Dominican if anything. I merely cite one version of old traditions that is right to get rid of the wrong. Another would be "Sic semper tyrannis"... for Caesars murder was murder but unjustified is questionable.
                  Last edited by snapper; 19 Dec 17,, 20:38.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by snapper View Post
                    The Jesuit Mission was universal - hence Guy Fawkes but I am not a Jesuit.
                    No bearing on this conversation and you are treading dangerous waters here. It is illegal for an American to threaten a Sitting President with physical harm. You are implying just that the Americans should do that.

                    Again, not your problem and not your place to tell how the Americans should act.
                    Chimo

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Colonel I have neither the power nor the will to interfere in the US democratic process - unlike some.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by snapper View Post
                        The Jesuit Mission was universal - hence Guy Fawkes but I am not a Jesuit, more Dominican if anything. I merely cite one version of old traditions that is right to get rid of the wrong.
                        Trump has done nothing wrong in the legal eyes of the United States.
                        Originally posted by snapper View Post
                        Another would be "Sic semper tyrannis"...
                        Trump is not a tyrant in the eyes of the Americans. Deal with it.

                        Originally posted by snapper View Post
                        for Caesars murder was murder but unjustified is questionable.
                        That question was answered with a Roman Civil War.
                        Chimo

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                          Trump has done nothing wrong in the legal eyes of the United States. Trump is not a tyrant in the eyes of the Americans. Deal with it.
                          Conspiracy for a start...

                          Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                          That question was answered with a Roman Civil War.
                          It was never settled while freedom lives in the heart of mankind; might does not equal right. I could give you a small speech on the Gracchi as an introduction to the wider Roman democracy they envisioned but was adopted by Octavian (Augustus) but it does not seem relevant here.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by snapper View Post
                            Conspiracy for a start...
                            That is your opinion which is completely and utterly 100% legally worthless.

                            Originally posted by snapper View Post
                            It was never settled while freedom lives in the heart of mankind; might does not equal right. I could give you a small speech on the Gracchi as an introduction to the wider Roman democracy they envisioned but was adopted by Octavian (Augustus) but it does not seem relevant here.
                            You asked if Caeser's murder was unjustified. Mark Anthony and Octavian answered that question with the sword.
                            Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 20 Dec 17,, 05:07.
                            Chimo

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              So they proved that Caesar was unrightfully killed by killing thousands of others who were not involved? Clearly in some ways the killing of Caesar was an 'assassination'; a murder and murder, being illegal killing, must be contrary to the law. This is so by analytic definition in the same way as triangle having three sides. But in some cases it can be morally right to break the law and the law often recognises this itself; going through a red light to get a dying person to hospital is the right thing to do though it is contrary to the rules. Ambulances are allowed to in most places. Likewise there was good reason for some to believe that Caesar aspired to the Kingship - Mark Anthony had offered him a diadem in the "Lupercalia Incident" and he treated Tribunes with disdain. If he was planning such a move - and they believed it was his goal - then the whole legal and moral basis of the Republic run by the Senate would have been over turned. The liberties of the people that the Senate theoretically guaranteed - the two Consuls, the Tribunes, all was at risk. It certainly was not what the Gracchi had fought (and died) for though in many way Caesar was a reforming populist in their tradition. Those Senators who killed Caesar clearly felt they were doing so to protect the law and their legal jurisdiction. In my view they were almost certainly right but we cannot know what Caesar may have done. In their place I would have acted as they did - I would have killed Sulla too but we can debate the decline of the Roman Republic elsewhere if you wish.

                              Was the execution of Charles l legal? Was it justified is another question and that is my point. We can debate whether it was legal till the cows come home and make cases for and against. Same with the justification. I believe that Bashir Assad is guilty of the same crime as Charles Stuart; making war on his own people against the law. You do not unleash chemical weapons on those civilians who's rights under the law a President (or a Monarch) is supposed to protect. Caesar did the same when he crossed the Rubicon under arms against the Republic contrary to law. Their lives were forfeit and I hope Assad, Putin and all their ilk will see justice soon.

                              When Trump is proven to have conspired with a foreign power to interfere with the lawful democratic process - and I have no doubt the case will be proved if the investigation is allowed to proceed - then he is similarly guilty and cannot claim to be above the law or pardon himself. Should he revoke some rule - which I am told he can do - and find a legal way to fire Mueller himself without going through the Deputy AG in order to stop them proving his guilt he would be proven by his own actions - along with his conversations with and firing of Comey and all the lies that he has told that now apparent to all - it is literally impossible to find a single statement he has made about Muscovy that is true.

                              Traitors and wannabe despots I have no time for. Give me a pop at Putin and I'd take it even if were certain to perish in the process - sadly there would be a long queue as there was with Caesar. You say it "none of my business" but right and wrong, good and evil are transnational concepts - one only has to be a human to understand them. Trump is not in my jurisdiction - neither is Putin but their effects bear on me and billions of others. Hell I have a different passport, job, a husband and a daughter coming thanks to Putin's illegality and murder. Yes I do claim the right to speak against a traitor in the US and a murderous Chekist kleptocrat in Moscow and to reaffirm the laws and rights of those who suffer and have died from the illegalities of these monstrous gangsters. Nor can I morally blame any who uses any opportunity they may have to snuff out such a monster when given the opportunity I would do the same. It may be contrary to law and certainly I prefer such people are tried - as in Saddam but these people live by the sword and the daggers of the Roman Senate were entirely justified in their own defence.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                snapper,

                                i see where you're coming from, and to some extent I have confidence in the process. -some-.

                                bottom-line, it's true that there are actions that Trump can take to try to shield himself from investigation or the punishments arising from investigation.

                                but it is also true that there are counter-moves to these actions...to an extent.

                                part of the reason why we're hitting a wall now is because we're in an environment the Founding Fathers never envisioned. and i don't mean Trump; he IS essentially the little d democratic nightmare they envisioned, but the defenses against it are all predicated on assumptions that do not hold true today.
                                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                                Comment

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