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Thread: Ex-FBI Director Mueller appointed DOJ Special Counsel

  1. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    My earlier thoughts:

    I could be entirely wrong that political shifts will return to a pendulum-like nature, and it may be that the pendulum no longer exists and will remain a playground tire swing for the foreseeable future.

    Other pendulums around the world are getting replaced with tire swings this last year. Italy comes prominently to mind.
    The birth control pill was approved for sale on my birthdate. On that day, the Republican President had been made to look bad by the Russians (U-2) prior he also pissed off the French and British by telling them to leave the Suez.
    Yemen, Lebonan were experiencing political unrest. African Americans were not getting the same opportunities of all Americans. The US Senate had an ex Klansmen as a member, turned out the longest-serving member of the Senate. Italy's government 9 Prime Ministers from 1953 to 1960. That was just May 1960.

    The fastest growing party in California is the no party affiliation Independent. When Nancy Polisi says a $1,000 tax rebate is nothing in a state where 80 percent of the population can't afford long-term housing and has 25 % of the nations homeless population. The Republicans don't represent my interest nor do the Democrats. Both parties seem to nurture candiates who possess the intellectural and emotional capility of a teenager.

    America will survive after all the Federal system was formed by a bunch of white guys who didn't trust each other and human nature. At least the courts seem to be working.
    Last edited by Dazed; 09 Aug 18, at 22:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    My earlier thoughts:

    I could be entirely wrong that political shifts will return to a pendulum-like nature, and it may be that the pendulum no longer exists and will remain a playground tire swing for the foreseeable future.

    Other pendulums around the world are getting replaced with tire swings this last year. Italy comes prominently to mind.
    It seems to me that shift, if you want to call it that, doesn't resembles a pendulum like shift. More like it's baaaaack.

    I'll look at it from a disease point of view. Take those two clowns (traitors if I am asked) who are wearing those red shirts about being Russian. We had Germany sympathizers back in the late 30's. We have these clowns in the t-shirts today. One can easily see where their true loyalty lies and it isn't with the United States of America.

    We have had the KKK as your typical white supremacist group in the out in the open sometimes but more often in the shadows. They have never gone away. They were just in remission. Now they feel they can show their faces proudly and even use fascist associations. No surprise as I have always felt this country could tend towards the far right more than the far left if the conditions were right.

    What has happened is that ancient catalyst has arisen in the form of Trump. A man who looks for fears and then plays off of them and uses them. Many in our society hear him talk about making America great again which to many means making it like it was in the 50's and 60's. That means we don't need no stinking immigrants in this country namely skin color other than white. We don't need no stinking other religions in this country other than Protestant. Those who are already here should be happy and keep their mouths shut. Be seen once in awhile but definitely never heard. That ideas have only been suppressed much like chemo does for a cancer. This country clearly still has an issue with the term equality. For most it means equality on my terms.

    However, Trump has lent credence to their beliefs and validated their beliefs so they can come out into the open after all these years. So who can put the genie back in the bottle? Can the genie be put back into the bottle? As long as we are in a brave new world economically, no going back to the 50's and the world jumps when America says jump, there are going to be those who can't adapt, or won't adapt and so be left behind. They will fester and a person like Trump is made to order for them. Unfortunately one of the reasons they can't adapt also makes a very good reason for why they can't see themselves being used.

  3. #738
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    How 'formerly' are you talking DOR? Pre-Obama I assume. The 'honour' was decreasingly evident during his Presidency. A segment of the GOP was a fair way down the hole when Trump arrived. Its near total spinelessness in the face of a phenomenon it has been stoking for years has been less surprising than I expected.

    They will do nothing as long as it looks like their base supports Trump. Maybe if they get crushed in the mid-terms....but even then.....
    Not just post 2009, but much, much earlier.

    At a minimum, the Arkansas Project -- the privately-funded, intense efforts undermine the Clinton presidency that was launched by big money GOPer donors before Bill Clinton was even sworn in -- is a stellar example of how far from honorable the GOP has fallen. The entire set of investigations into the Clintons -- for things that may or may not have happened long before he even declared his candidacy for the presidency, and later, was nothing short of a case of putting party (GOP) ahead of country.

    In the W years, the entire "let's get rid of Saddam, not because he attacked us but just because," thing that gave us the longest war in US history and ISIS and Obama and Trump, is another case of lying to the American people, to Congress and to our Allies for purely partisan purposes. Then there's the deliberate effort to "make Obama a one-term president" during the worst economic and financial crisis in 75 years.

    When it comes right down to it, the GOP has more in common with Leninist ideals of the role of the political party than it does with democratic ideals.

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  4. #739
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    dazed,

    America will survive after all the Federal system was formed by a bunch of white guys who didn't trust each other and human nature. At least the courts seem to be working.
    the issue is that the US political system has become almost completely clogged up while being ever more subject to extreme views as a result.

    the dangers of this should be apparent by now, because it heavily favors the executive. this has been readily true since Nixon, btw, and as a process has been accelerating since then.

    the US is overdue for a major reform effort a la what Teddy Roosevelt was proposing. the next President that takes an Obama-like control (ie 60 seats in the Senate, majority in the House)...will almost certainly not be content with passing merely legislative bills, but bills that significantly re-write politics itself.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    dazed,



    the issue is that the US political system has become almost completely clogged up while being ever more subject to extreme views as a result.

    the dangers of this should be apparent by now, because it heavily favors the executive. this has been readily true since Nixon, btw, and as a process has been accelerating since then.

    the US is overdue for a major reform effort a la what Teddy Roosevelt was proposing. the next President that takes an Obama-like control (ie 60 seats in the Senate, majority in the House)...will almost certainly not be content with passing merely legislative bills, but bills that significantly re-write politics itself.
    That's what executive orders do.

    I'm supporting an Article V Convention pretty much for the simple reason I no longer count on Congress to solve problems. I know some people are scared of "they'll rewrite everything". First, anything that got passed in it requires 38 of 50 state legislatures to also pass it. That's a high bar.

    On another forum we were discussing electoral systems/government and what works and doesn't about everyone's (mostly British Commonwealth posters, so heavy parliamentary). One of my main critiques of the current American system is Congress has become incredibly devalued. The Senate I think far more of than the House, but the notion they provide an effective check on the executive in the modern day is absurd. It probably started during Franklin Roosevelt's presidency and has over time reached the point it is today. I think it was former Indiana representative Lee Hamilton who served 34 years until 1996 that made the point that one problem with Congress is they don't want to get held accountable by voters back home for unpopular votes that have to be taken, so over time they've passed more and more responsibility off to unelected bureaucrats, or to put in a Republican phrase: "the swamp".

    There are a lot of elected representatives - both parties - that'd love nothing more than to be permanent opposition a la Ron Paul and Jeremy Corbyn pre-party leader. That way they can say whatever the hell they want, are not responsible for anything, and can call themselves principled.

  6. #741
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    rj1,

    That's what executive orders do.
    to some extent. Bush, Obama, and now Trump have been testing the limits of what executive powers can do.

    The Senate I think far more of than the House, but the notion they provide an effective check on the executive in the modern day is absurd.
    the failure to provide the effective check isn't so much an issue of the ossification of the Senate-- it has to do with partisanship. IE, Nixon left because he was told by his own party in no uncertain terms that they were going to ditch him. there's absolutely no such thing in today's GOP.

    however, the failure to proceed with legislation IS part of the ossification of the Senate, ie the filibuster.

    basically everything gets stuffed in "must-pass" bills or budget bills, otherwise it requires a supermajority of 60 votes to get anything done. and as we've seen, a lot of "must-pass" stuff have started falling to pieces as well.

    I think it was former Indiana representative Lee Hamilton who served 34 years until 1996 that made the point that one problem with Congress is they don't want to get held accountable by voters back home for unpopular votes that have to be taken
    yes, stuff like gerrymandering and even the elimination of pork-barrel spending means that the only way for representatives to stand out in a do-nothing Congress is through ever more extreme declarations of principle.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    A few cheesy Facebook ads, they didn't block Hillary from bothering to show up to battleground states, nor cause her message to suck. Didn't hack results, bomb polling stations or anything of real substance.
    Hacking a US political and releasing emails is bit more than a "few cheesy Facebook ads."

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    Hell Ukrainian kleptocrats tired to interfere on behalf of a candidate who lacked stamina and EU globalists opened their mouths as well.
    Which servers did Ukraine hack? The nearest thing related to Ukraine that had some play in your election was Paul Manafort... You might recall he was Trumpkin's Campaign Manager. I believe he is now on trial.

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    I could honestly care less, whether or not you are making that up
    I could not give two hoots what you believe either but do you deny that Muscow interferred in your election in favour of Trumpkin? Do you deny that have attacked Ukraine or invaded Georgia 10yrs ago to the day almost? Now if that is all ok or even good for you and Putin is your 'hero' why do you not have the courage of your convictions and go to the land blessed land?

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    The Russian Federation trembles at snappers' daily whining. The bar tenders at the TGIF at Moscow's international airport fear your reputation.
    One person alone is never a real threat... but I am far from alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    Whined about Obama because he, like the vast majority of Americans, wasn't going to back the Ukraine to the hilt.
    Well actually a fair bit more... His silly Syrian "red line" which he did not back up.

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    In the end its whining from a voter on behalf a nation which doesn't matter. Keep whining, Trump will keep MAGAing it up.
    Putin seems to disagree with you regarding the importance of Ukraine.

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    Checking through WAB reassures me that 2016 was the best result for America.
    If you seriously believe that Trumpkin is any way "making America great again" you are guilty of a willful suspension of rationality; in all of Europe Trumpkin is a freaking laughing stock.

    It is almost as if there are "Trump Believers"; whatever he says - whether it is related to fact or not remotely related - must be true. "Mexico will pay for the wall" but he's willing to close down the Government if Congress will not pay for the wall. Well both cannot be true but so what... woop? "CHAIN MIGRATION must end now! Some people come in, and they bring their whole family with them, who can be truly evil" except when it's Melania's parents? He's so religious but has numerous rendez vous with somewhat dubious Ladies. He's a conservative but extends the budget deficit. Putin is unhappy that he is President but Putin said he wanted Trumpkin to win (and helped).

    He's a serial liar; a con man and a money launderer deeply compromised by Moscow. The world is laughing at you.

  8. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    the failure to provide the effective check isn't so much an issue of the ossification of the Senate-- it has to do with partisanship. IE, Nixon left because he was told by his own party in no uncertain terms that they were going to ditch him. there's absolutely no such thing in today's GOP.
    You're correct, but if the parties were reversed, it wouldn't have happened either. Modern-day national politics is effectively a civil war without guns. Hillary Clinton to me is a modern-day Nixon as far as all the scandal and scheming her and her husband have been involved in since before 1992. They still nominated her. The Democrats were never going to flip on her if she got elected and an even bigger smoking gun came out.

    Any Republican that says they will abandon Trump will be voted out. The anti-Trump legislators in Congress have either been retiring or losing primaries this year.

    A historical analogy can be drawn to Andrew Johnson's impeachment. None of the Republicans in the Senate that voted against President Johnson's conviction ever held elected office again.

    however, the failure to proceed with legislation IS part of the ossification of the Senate, ie the filibuster.
    I was decrying Congress in general, not just the Senate. I think more of the Senate than I do the House as far as quality of politician.

    basically everything gets stuffed in "must-pass" bills or budget bills, otherwise it requires a supermajority of 60 votes to get anything done. and as we've seen, a lot of "must-pass" stuff have started falling to pieces as well.
    The filibuster has gone past its sell-by date. I agree.

    yes, stuff like gerrymandering and even the elimination of pork-barrel spending means that the only way for representatives to stand out in a do-nothing Congress is through ever more extreme declarations of principle.
    Part of the problem is Americans themselves and their lack of interest. It allows an information vacuum to develop and you then get snakes that fill the radio, TV, and internet with whatever they want to advance their own interests.
    Last edited by rj1; 10 Aug 18, at 20:08.

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    rj1,

    You're correct, but if the parties were reversed, it wouldn't have happened either.
    i'm rather more ambivalent about this. i'm inclined to agree, because impeachment requires a pretty large number of "defections" especially if the majority party is in charge, but there's some factors within the Democratic Party that clearly makes it less "disciplined" than the Republican Party.

    IE, look at the number of Dems publicly stating how they want to throw Nancy Pelosi overboard. not because of misconduct, but simply because the Republicans have made her an effective boogeymonster and an easy synonym for "SF liberal". there's no equivalent with the Republicans-- if anything, when Republicans talk about kicking someone out, it's because they're "not conservative enough".

    Hillary Clinton to me is a modern-day Nixon as far as all the scandal and scheming her and her husband have been involved in since before 1992. They still nominated her.
    a bit of false equivalence here. HRC is nowhere akin to Nixon or Trump levels of corruption and dirty dealing. she's well within regular range of your average politico. let's put it in another light, Gingrich is considerably more corrupt than HRC ever was (if not half as bad as Trump), yet no one is turning HIM into a dirty word for corruption.

    I was decrying Congress in general, not just the Senate. I think more of the Senate than I do the House as far as quality of politician.
    agreed.

    Part of the problem is Americans themselves and their lack of interest. It allows an information vacuum to develop and you then get snakes that fill the radio, TV, and internet with whatever they want to advance their own interests.
    the information vacuum has always been there. technology has allowed this vacuum to expand and deepen exponentially. there's no easy work-arounds to this, but there ARE fairly simple work-arounds to problematic items like politicians choosing their voters.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  10. #745
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    Well actually a fair bit more... His silly Syrian "red line" which he did not back up.
    The public (and neither political party) didn't want to back it up. Life went on in the USA.

    Hacking a US political and releasing emails is bit more than a "few cheesy Facebook ads."
    Releasing emails the DNC wrote is a candy-ass "invasion of our elections" and "genocide of the democratic process." Hillary is a miserable politician and she lost.

    One person alone is never a real threat... but I am far from alone.
    They tremble at your LARPing on WAB about secret meetings and access to sekstapes.

    If you seriously believe that Trumpkin is any way "making America great again" you are guilty of a willful suspension of rationality; in all of Europe Trumpkin is a freaking laughing stock.
    Trump is doing a pretty good job, and like millions of Americans I could give a damn what Europeans (who we are supposed to keep safe from evil Russia while they break bread with Putin) think.

    People smugly repeat European dislike for much of our population and our values like it somehow matters and means we need to conform to them.

    The world is laughing at you.
    And we are Number 1. Take the globe, spin it and you will likely put your finger on a nation whose people dream of living in the USA, under Trump.

    It is almost as if there are "Trump Believers"; whatever he says - whether it is related to fact or not remotely related - must be true. "Mexico will pay for the wall" but he's willing to close down the Government if Congress will not pay for the wall. Well both cannot be true but so what... woop? "CHAIN MIGRATION must end now! Some people come in, and they bring their whole family with them, who can be truly evil" except when it's Melania's parents? He's so religious but has numerous rendez vous with somewhat dubious Ladies. He's a conservative but extends the budget deficit. Putin is unhappy that he is President but Putin said he wanted Trumpkin to win (and helped).
    Deficits - everyone runs those.
    Mistresses - Rather European of him.
    The MAGA Wall - The Emperor isn't done yet.

    I could not give two hoots what you believe either but do you deny that Muscow interferred in your election in favour of Trumpkin? Do you deny that have attacked Ukraine or invaded Georgia 10yrs ago to the day almost? Now if that is all ok or even good for you and Putin is your 'hero' why do you not have the courage of your convictions and go to the land blessed land?
    He isn't my hero, as an American I just could really care less about which third world nation runs which pig farm, dreary town, or abandoned factory.
    Ukraine - awfully stupid to give them a naval base in the first place, even dumber to sell off military stockpiles to third world despots,and so forth and so on. Decades of Ukrainian stupidity and venality allowed Putin to march in.
    Georgia - Saakashvili gambled poorly.
    Last edited by troung; 11 Aug 18, at 06:47.
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  11. #746
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    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    The public (and neither political party) didn't want to back it up. Life went on in the USA.
    Which is why it was not particularly wise to draw a 'red line'. But you never jumped up and down when I criticised Obama...

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    Releasing emails the DNC wrote is a candy-ass "invasion of our elections" and "genocide of the democratic process." Hillary is a miserable politician and she lost.
    So everything they did, including hacking 22 to 45 State systems, was merely paltry? Given the closeness of the election they did not make a difference - despite all the time and money Moscow spent on it - no effect? Can you prove that?

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    They tremble at your LARPing on WAB about secret meetings and access to sekstapes.
    The tape I know exists was not a sex tape.

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    Trump is doing a pretty good job, and like millions of Americans I could give a damn what Europeans (who we are supposed to keep safe from evil Russia while they break bread with Putin) think.
    So answer me this then: Is a country - any country - stronger with or without allies and trading partners? Where is the biggest free market in the world and to whom is it normally allied?

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    People smugly repeat European dislike for much of our population and our values like it somehow matters and means we need to conform to them.
    I have nothing against the US population; just dictator psychophants like you. Wouldn't matter if you were Martian - you would still be repulsive.

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    And we are Number 1. Take the globe, spin it and you will likely put your finger on a nation whose people dream of living in the USA, under Trump.
    Your self serving President is doing to his best to make you a third world kleptocracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    Deficits - everyone runs those.
    Not when the economy is growing. Squirrels save acorns during summer because they know winter will come.

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    Mistresses - Rather European of him.
    But they do not claim to be evangelical and righteous. You cannot be both.

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    The MAGA Wall - The Emperor isn't done yet.
    Will Mexico pay too?

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    He isn't my hero, as an American I just could really care less about which third world nation runs which pig farm, dreary town, or abandoned factory.
    Any vaguely fascistic despot gets your praise. I merely ask why you do not have the courage of your convictions to go live in one of these 'paradises'?

  12. #747
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    I may be overreacting, but it is starting to sound like some people around here have lost faith in the separation of powers design. The idea that we need a constitutional convention, for example, suggests that the 240+ year old governing structure is so far gone that it should be chucked out and we should start all over.

    I disagree.

    Asking a nation that can’t be bothered to register to vote in large numbers, let alone actually casting a ballot, to comprehend something as complex as a constitutional convention is just silly. If people don’t care enough to get involved, why in the world would they be excited – in the overwhelming numbers necessary – to hand ultimate power over to a group of unknown, untested, unrestricted political activists?

    Don’t fool yourselves into thinking “We The People” are going to be the majority at such a convention. It will be the same career politicians that run every aspect of political life. The difference will be just one thing: unlimited power.

    That’s why I am dumbfounded by the so-called conservatives calling for a constitutional convention. The idea of giving that much power to that kind of group should scare the pants off them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    I may be overreacting, but it is starting to sound like some people around here have lost faith in the separation of powers design. The idea that we need a constitutional convention, for example, suggests that the 240+ year old governing structure is so far gone that it should be chucked out and we should start all over.

    I disagree.

    Asking a nation that can’t be bothered to register to vote in large numbers, let alone actually casting a ballot, to comprehend something as complex as a constitutional convention is just silly. If people don’t care enough to get involved, why in the world would they be excited – in the overwhelming numbers necessary – to hand ultimate power over to a group of unknown, untested, unrestricted political activists?

    Don’t fool yourselves into thinking “We The People” are going to be the majority at such a convention. It will be the same career politicians that run every aspect of political life. The difference will be just one thing: unlimited power.

    That’s why I am dumbfounded by the so-called conservatives calling for a constitutional convention. The idea of giving that much power to that kind of group should scare the pants off them.
    We really need the like button back.

    Spot on DOR
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  14. #749
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    Which is why it was not particularly wise to draw a 'red line'. But you never jumped up and down when I criticised Obama...
    I wasn't around much + foreigners from nations who won't be enforcing said red line don't have particularly worthwhile opinions.

    So everything they did, including hacking 22 to 45 State systems, was merely paltry? Given the closeness of the election they did not make a difference - despite all the time and money Moscow spent on it - no effect? Can you prove that?
    Up to the people making the claim to prove that Russia changed the election results/hacked election machines.

    Democrats are turning Russia into a far more capable and threatening nation than it could dream of being in the hopes of explaining away the loss of the Rust Belt.

    The tape I know exists was not a sex tape.
    LOL, more fakery.

    So answer me this then: Is a country - any country - stronger with or without allies and trading partners? Where is the biggest free market in the world and to whom is it normally allied?
    People trot out the "opinion" of Europeans when they intend to insult American people, I and millions of others simply don't care what Europeans think.

    Germany is meanwhile building a pipeline to get Russian gas cheaper...

    I have nothing against the US population; just dictator psychophants like you. Wouldn't matter if you were Martian - you would still be repulsive.
    Millions, who vote for both political parties, could care less about the Ukraine and Eastern Europe in general. Barry, and his base, shrugged off Putin taking the Crimea. You are a foreigner who is mad that two American Presidents representing two different electoral bases haven't been prepared to go to war over which third world nation runs which abandoned factory town.

    Any vaguely fascistic despot gets your praise. I merely ask why you do not have the courage of your convictions to go live in one of these 'paradises'?
    Drive to the Crimea, please go there and fight some Russians.

    Silly to cry and scream that any American who doesn't believe that they were put here on Earth go to work in the morning so other people can flush their tax dollars down Eastern Europe, the Middle East, or any other region should go live in Russia. We appear to have voted for the opposite, and with the way some prominent Dems are suggesting universal health care can be "paid" on the back of the Pentagon it appears not giving a damn is bipartisan.

    Not when the economy is growing. Squirrels save acorns during summer because they know winter will come.
    Deficits are bi-partisan.

    But they do not claim to be evangelical and righteous. You cannot be both.
    Trump was voted in with people knowing he wasn't an Evangelical.

    Your self serving President is doing to his best to make you a third world kleptocracy.
    We have a long way to go before we wake up the Ukraine or Russia.

    =
    MAGA
    Last edited by troung; 12 Aug 18, at 01:15.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rj1 View Post
    Hillary Clinton to me is a modern-day Nixon as far as all the scandal and scheming her and her husband have been involved in since before 1992.
    rj1,

    Take a moment.
    Reflect on what's gone on.
    Ask yourself one question: Is what I think I believe about Hillary Clinton based on fact, or is it the swirling mix of Russian propaganda, GOPer dirty tricks and echo chamber social media?

    One of the things that makes sense to me is that most of The Trumpet's base is unable to admit they were played like a set of drums.
    Last edited by DOR; 12 Aug 18, at 11:58.
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