no more personal invective. this stops now.
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Ex-FBI Director Mueller appointed DOJ Special Counsel
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There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
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Originally posted by snapper View PostThis is where I where I fall out with today's GOP. I don't know what "the right" means here; to some it seems to mean the President is above the law - in which case Nixon and Hitler were within their rights to commit the crimes they participated in. To some it just seems that Trump is always right. I fundamentally disagree with both: Nobody, not even a King, can be above the law or freedom of property and every other liberty ends. Nor is any single person always right. We have all made mistakes and failed before - I mean Trump has seven corporate bankruptcies to his name so he is hardly some business genius. I am not "the right" but a Conservative. I get things wrong - hell I voted for PiS in Poland but regret it now. But failure and understanding our mistakes is a strength; we learn and grow. Today these Trump apologists - and Trump himself "I think that would qualify as not smart, but genius....and a very stable genius at that!" try to say he is beyond the law and a genius. He is not. How a genius goes broke with a casino I have no idea. How a 'stable genius' manages to misunderstand so much and lie about so much - give so many versions of a story (for example the Comey firing) is not making sense to me. How other idiots still apologise for this Idiot in Chief, entrapped by the Muscovites years ago, is making you look either stupid or worse. This guy has to go. He is mentally and emotionally incapable of performing the duties of a head of State as well as being in debt to Muscovy.
Is it "right" to leak to the press? It may be illegal; Mark Felt ("Deepthroat" from the Watergate business) was deputy FBI boss so certainly his leaking was illegal but there was more criminality within the Nixon Administration: Those who first break the law cannot complain when when they are answered in their on their own terms. Certainly Felt's actions were not done to bring down the rule of law but to expose that others were seeking to do so. If sometimes you must break rules to uphold the greater system of law is it wrong? Not in my view. Mark Felt broke the law to uphold the US Constitution, he deserves respect not condemnation.
Now you have a similar situation. It is clear that Comey was "pressured" by Trump (having asked everyone else to leave the room) to drop the Flynn investigation (that Sally Yates had warned him about - getting her fired) and when Comey refused to swear loyalty to Trump he followed Yates. It is clear your President and his advisors have lied repeatedly about their contacts with Moscow during the election. It is clear that your President has lied repeatedly about his business dealings with Moscow. It is clear he and his associates want the Muscovite investigation closed and have accomplices in Congress - who have sent the Department of Justice a request to investigate of all people Christoper Steele - who did hand over his findings to the FBI without having been asked because he thought they should know.
You have been attacked. You are at war whether you like it or not. We have the same here and understand - and I do not trust Poroshenko farther than could I throw him, which is not a foot as he is too fat and I am too small. The world cannot afford to lose the rule of law in the US. All during the dark days of the Soviet oppression people here used to listen to BBC and Voice of America and dream one day they could enjoy the same liberty as the "West", now in large part we do - except in the revanchest Muscovite state that attacked your democracy; there are Muscovites even today who pray for a strong American President to denounce Putin and his Mafia kleptocracy. Every person today is today a front line in this information and disinformation war. We all know that truth is single and pure and in our heart of hearts know what is right. Yesterday I lit a candle in the Orthodox Greek church in the mountains of Ukraine for America. God go with you because it is him as well as your children you will answer for actions or inaction's in the days that come this year.
Manafort is not a policy maker. He is not in the bureaucracy, he is not the President, he is not a Congressman, he is not a Senator. To the extent that he is a "bought man," it is legal, because he is a lobbyist for a foreign nation. To the extent he is a criminal, it is because he unquestionably failed to register as a foreign lobbyist, which is a crime. So is jaywalking. He's getting hit for money-laundering...which...sure...okay? Do we need a special investigator for that?
I think Zraver has been saying that a sitting President cannot be indicted for a criminal charge. That is NOT the same as saying the President is above the law. You can still sue the President, you can still impeach the President, the President cannot just steal your property, etc. It's also not the same as saying you cannot prosecute a FORMER President for a crime committed during his Presidency.
I think it's clear that you are pretty paranoid about Russian intentions and Russian influence in the US and are just assuming the worst about Trump. Make no mistake, I think Trump is bad for the Republic, but I think it's worse to have half-baked conspiracy theories being peddled in order to remove a sitting President. This is equally true for the various Birther conspiracies. And this comes from a guy who has been anti-Russia since 2003, when it was still popular to think that Russia might be our newest and bestest BFF given enough time."The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck
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Originally posted by GVChamp View PostManafort is not a policy maker. He is not in the bureaucracy, he is not the President, he is not a Congressman, he is not a Senator. To the extent that he is a "bought man," it is legal, because he is a lobbyist for a foreign nation. To the extent he is a criminal, it is because he unquestionably failed to register as a foreign lobbyist, which is a crime. So is jaywalking. He's getting hit for money-laundering...which...sure...okay? Do we need a special investigator for that?
Originally posted by GVChamp View PostI think Zraver has been saying that a sitting President cannot be indicted for a criminal charge. That is NOT the same as saying the President is above the law. You can still sue the President, you can still impeach the President, the President cannot just steal your property, etc. It's also not the same as saying you cannot prosecute a FORMER President for a crime committed during his Presidency.
Originally posted by GVChamp View PostI think it's clear that you are pretty paranoid about Russian intentions and Russian influence in the US and are just assuming the worst about Trump. Make no mistake, I think Trump is bad for the Republic, but I think it's worse to have half-baked conspiracy theories being peddled in order to remove a sitting President. This is equally true for the various Birther conspiracies. And this comes from a guy who has been anti-Russia since 2003, when it was still popular to think that Russia might be our newest and bestest BFF given enough time.
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Originally posted by GVChamp View PostAnd this comes from a guy who has been anti-Russia since 2003, when it was still popular to think that Russia might be our newest and bestest BFF given enough time.
Anybody remember the reset button in 2009? It English it was labeled 'reset', but it Russian it was labeled 'peregruzka' (overcharged). They pressed it, and that's what happened. :-)Last edited by Ironduke; 08 Jan 18,, 21:33."Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."
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There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
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Originally posted by Ironduke View Post"I looked the man in the eye. I found him very straightforward and trustworthy – I was able to get a sense of his soul." - George W. Bush
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Originally posted by astralis View Post"Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."
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Originally posted by GVChamp View PostI think it's clear that you are pretty paranoid about Russian intentions and Russian influence in the US and are just assuming the worst about Trump. Make no mistake, I think Trump is bad for the Republic, but I think it's worse to have half-baked conspiracy theories being peddled in order to remove a sitting President. This is equally true for the various Birther conspiracies. And this comes from a guy who has been anti-Russia since 2003, when it was still popular to think that Russia might be our newest and bestest BFF given enough time.
I believe it has become very evident that even if there's not, that Donald Trump was the target of an extremely concerted and dedicated Russian influence operation, and that his and his people's judgments were so exceedingly poor, their ignorance so vast, their gullibility so great, and their ethics and morals so absent, that they were getting taken in by it as unwitting fools, and that's something that's very dangerous for the country.
I don't think this is some conspiracy that stretches back for years, that the Russians were cultivating Trump as some Mongolian Candidate from way back when. I think in the last couple years, they sensed an opportunity, that there were connections, prior business dealings, and relationships that provided openings, and they gradually exploited it in an escalating manner.
That being said, I think Paul Manafort is a Russian agent/asset, and there's a lot more going on with him than what is covered in his indictment.Last edited by Ironduke; 09 Jan 18,, 04:51."Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."
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Originally posted by snapper View PostI think anyone should be prosecuted for a crime. Particularly those in the highest offices. That is my view. I would respect a differing view if put politely and a conversation regarding our contrasting views. Some it seems are not upto that though. I would also remind you that Caesar crossed the Rubicon to prevent his being prosecuted when his Consulship ended.Last edited by TopHatter; 09 Jan 18,, 13:30. Reason: Last Warning. Keep the invective OUT of this discussion
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Originally posted by Ironduke View PostDonald Trump was the target of an extremely concerted and dedicated Russian influence operation, and that his and his people's judgments were so exceedingly poor, their ignorance so vast, their gullibility so great, and their ethics and morals so absent, that they were getting taken in by it as unwitting fools, and that's something that's very dangerous for the country.“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
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Originally posted by TopHatter View PostMarvelous. Absolutely accurate IMO, could not have said it any better myself. Can I quote that elsewhere at some point in the future?"Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."
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So Russia magically knew that Trump could wipe the floor with 17 other candidates and then beat Hillary in order to unleash a foreign policy hostile to them. They wanted NATO too meet their defense obligations ahead of schedule and for the US to permanently station US troops in Poland and Baltics? They wanted us to lob missiles at Assad and screw thier buddy John Podesta who was working so hard on their behalf? Uh-huh sure.
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Originally posted by zraver View PostSo Russia magically knew that Trump could wipe the floor with 17 other candidates and then beat Hillary in order to unleash a foreign policy hostile to them. They wanted NATO too meet their defense obligations ahead of schedule and for the US to permanently station US troops in Poland and Baltics? They wanted us to lob missiles at Assad and screw thier buddy John Podesta who was working so hard on their behalf? Uh-huh sure.Last edited by Ironduke; 10 Jan 18,, 16:09."Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."
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