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Ex-FBI Director Mueller appointed DOJ Special Counsel

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  • no more personal invective. this stops now.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    • Originally posted by snapper View Post
      This is where I where I fall out with today's GOP. I don't know what "the right" means here; to some it seems to mean the President is above the law - in which case Nixon and Hitler were within their rights to commit the crimes they participated in. To some it just seems that Trump is always right. I fundamentally disagree with both: Nobody, not even a King, can be above the law or freedom of property and every other liberty ends. Nor is any single person always right. We have all made mistakes and failed before - I mean Trump has seven corporate bankruptcies to his name so he is hardly some business genius. I am not "the right" but a Conservative. I get things wrong - hell I voted for PiS in Poland but regret it now. But failure and understanding our mistakes is a strength; we learn and grow. Today these Trump apologists - and Trump himself "I think that would qualify as not smart, but genius....and a very stable genius at that!" try to say he is beyond the law and a genius. He is not. How a genius goes broke with a casino I have no idea. How a 'stable genius' manages to misunderstand so much and lie about so much - give so many versions of a story (for example the Comey firing) is not making sense to me. How other idiots still apologise for this Idiot in Chief, entrapped by the Muscovites years ago, is making you look either stupid or worse. This guy has to go. He is mentally and emotionally incapable of performing the duties of a head of State as well as being in debt to Muscovy.

      Is it "right" to leak to the press? It may be illegal; Mark Felt ("Deepthroat" from the Watergate business) was deputy FBI boss so certainly his leaking was illegal but there was more criminality within the Nixon Administration: Those who first break the law cannot complain when when they are answered in their on their own terms. Certainly Felt's actions were not done to bring down the rule of law but to expose that others were seeking to do so. If sometimes you must break rules to uphold the greater system of law is it wrong? Not in my view. Mark Felt broke the law to uphold the US Constitution, he deserves respect not condemnation.

      Now you have a similar situation. It is clear that Comey was "pressured" by Trump (having asked everyone else to leave the room) to drop the Flynn investigation (that Sally Yates had warned him about - getting her fired) and when Comey refused to swear loyalty to Trump he followed Yates. It is clear your President and his advisors have lied repeatedly about their contacts with Moscow during the election. It is clear that your President has lied repeatedly about his business dealings with Moscow. It is clear he and his associates want the Muscovite investigation closed and have accomplices in Congress - who have sent the Department of Justice a request to investigate of all people Christoper Steele - who did hand over his findings to the FBI without having been asked because he thought they should know.

      You have been attacked. You are at war whether you like it or not. We have the same here and understand - and I do not trust Poroshenko farther than could I throw him, which is not a foot as he is too fat and I am too small. The world cannot afford to lose the rule of law in the US. All during the dark days of the Soviet oppression people here used to listen to BBC and Voice of America and dream one day they could enjoy the same liberty as the "West", now in large part we do - except in the revanchest Muscovite state that attacked your democracy; there are Muscovites even today who pray for a strong American President to denounce Putin and his Mafia kleptocracy. Every person today is today a front line in this information and disinformation war. We all know that truth is single and pure and in our heart of hearts know what is right. Yesterday I lit a candle in the Orthodox Greek church in the mountains of Ukraine for America. God go with you because it is him as well as your children you will answer for actions or inaction's in the days that come this year.
      I think you're misreading the point of both Bf's and Zraver's posts. I am not following this thread or the whole Russia thing too closely: IMO, this was wrapped up when Comey gave his testimony, had absolutely nothing, and the media spun it as "TRUMP IS THE BIGGEST MONSTER ON EARTH!"

      Manafort is not a policy maker. He is not in the bureaucracy, he is not the President, he is not a Congressman, he is not a Senator. To the extent that he is a "bought man," it is legal, because he is a lobbyist for a foreign nation. To the extent he is a criminal, it is because he unquestionably failed to register as a foreign lobbyist, which is a crime. So is jaywalking. He's getting hit for money-laundering...which...sure...okay? Do we need a special investigator for that?

      I think Zraver has been saying that a sitting President cannot be indicted for a criminal charge. That is NOT the same as saying the President is above the law. You can still sue the President, you can still impeach the President, the President cannot just steal your property, etc. It's also not the same as saying you cannot prosecute a FORMER President for a crime committed during his Presidency.

      I think it's clear that you are pretty paranoid about Russian intentions and Russian influence in the US and are just assuming the worst about Trump. Make no mistake, I think Trump is bad for the Republic, but I think it's worse to have half-baked conspiracy theories being peddled in order to remove a sitting President. This is equally true for the various Birther conspiracies. And this comes from a guy who has been anti-Russia since 2003, when it was still popular to think that Russia might be our newest and bestest BFF given enough time.
      "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

      Comment


      • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
        Manafort is not a policy maker. He is not in the bureaucracy, he is not the President, he is not a Congressman, he is not a Senator. To the extent that he is a "bought man," it is legal, because he is a lobbyist for a foreign nation. To the extent he is a criminal, it is because he unquestionably failed to register as a foreign lobbyist, which is a crime. So is jaywalking. He's getting hit for money-laundering...which...sure...okay? Do we need a special investigator for that?
        But he was other things; Trumps campaign manager and a colleague of a known GRU agent among other Muscovites. He offered information to Moscow on the Trump campaign and laundered stolen Ukrainian money - which we would appreciate back. He was no "tea boy". Why was he campaign manager at a time when all these denied contacts were going on? Why ask for back channels? Dots may be dots but they make a picture. That is why Mueller matters and if he is fired you must examine your conscience.

        Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
        I think Zraver has been saying that a sitting President cannot be indicted for a criminal charge. That is NOT the same as saying the President is above the law. You can still sue the President, you can still impeach the President, the President cannot just steal your property, etc. It's also not the same as saying you cannot prosecute a FORMER President for a crime committed during his Presidency.
        I think anyone should be prosecuted for a crime. Particularly those in the highest offices. That is my view. I would respect a differing view if put politely and a conversation regarding our contrasting views. Some it seems are not upto that though. I would also remind you that Caesar crossed the Rubicon to prevent his being prosecuted when his Consulship ended.

        Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
        I think it's clear that you are pretty paranoid about Russian intentions and Russian influence in the US and are just assuming the worst about Trump. Make no mistake, I think Trump is bad for the Republic, but I think it's worse to have half-baked conspiracy theories being peddled in order to remove a sitting President. This is equally true for the various Birther conspiracies. And this comes from a guy who has been anti-Russia since 2003, when it was still popular to think that Russia might be our newest and bestest BFF given enough time.
        I am not paranoid. I knew the war in Ukraine was coming after the so called "free West" did nothing after they invaded Georgia; you did not need a crystal ball. I warned as others did before me; nobody listened. "Paranoid Poles and Lithuanians" or "Cassandra's" we were. Paranoia no. We were right. You have been attacked, we more blatantly but we weathered the storm and are now used to it. You may not like that fact but fact it remains. Your democracy has been undermined by a milign mafia state that has nuclear weapons aimed at you. How you react to that I hope you allow your conscience rather than self interest dictate; that is why I lit a candle and prayed for your country that for so long has been an example to all oppressed nations. No Chekist Mafia will ever be anyone's best friend - not even their own. Forget deals - they do not do them except to get you in their power - as with your President and his money. Decide how you act if/when Mueller is fired. Decide how you will vote if nothing else. That is all the world asks for as US citizen you carry the hopes -and fears - of so many who aspire to your liberties and ideals of justice across the world. May God guide you wisely.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
          And this comes from a guy who has been anti-Russia since 2003, when it was still popular to think that Russia might be our newest and bestest BFF given enough time.
          "I looked the man in the eye. I found him very straightforward and trustworthy – I was able to get a sense of his soul." - George W. Bush

          Anybody remember the reset button in 2009? It English it was labeled 'reset', but it Russian it was labeled 'peregruzka' (overcharged). They pressed it, and that's what happened. :-)
          Last edited by Ironduke; 08 Jan 18,, 21:33.
          "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

          Comment


          • https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...54d_story.html

            ought to be good.
            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
              "I looked the man in the eye. I found him very straightforward and trustworthy – I was able to get a sense of his soul." - George W. Bush
              "I looked him in the eye and saw KGB" McCain. Guess who was right. INF Treaty? Budapest Memorandum? Helsinki Final Accords? UN Charter? Means nothing.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                Well hell, even if Trump has done absolutely nothing wrong in his entire life, and I'm stating the obvious here, his tenuous grasp on the truth could potentially prove to be extremely dangerous if he sits down in an interview with Mueller's people.
                "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                  I think it's clear that you are pretty paranoid about Russian intentions and Russian influence in the US and are just assuming the worst about Trump. Make no mistake, I think Trump is bad for the Republic, but I think it's worse to have half-baked conspiracy theories being peddled in order to remove a sitting President. This is equally true for the various Birther conspiracies. And this comes from a guy who has been anti-Russia since 2003, when it was still popular to think that Russia might be our newest and bestest BFF given enough time.
                  It may very well turn out to be the case that there is no underlying crime regarding the collusion with Russia accusations.

                  I believe it has become very evident that even if there's not, that Donald Trump was the target of an extremely concerted and dedicated Russian influence operation, and that his and his people's judgments were so exceedingly poor, their ignorance so vast, their gullibility so great, and their ethics and morals so absent, that they were getting taken in by it as unwitting fools, and that's something that's very dangerous for the country.

                  I don't think this is some conspiracy that stretches back for years, that the Russians were cultivating Trump as some Mongolian Candidate from way back when. I think in the last couple years, they sensed an opportunity, that there were connections, prior business dealings, and relationships that provided openings, and they gradually exploited it in an escalating manner.

                  That being said, I think Paul Manafort is a Russian agent/asset, and there's a lot more going on with him than what is covered in his indictment.
                  Last edited by Ironduke; 09 Jan 18,, 04:51.
                  "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                    I think anyone should be prosecuted for a crime. Particularly those in the highest offices. That is my view. I would respect a differing view if put politely and a conversation regarding our contrasting views. Some it seems are not upto that though. I would also remind you that Caesar crossed the Rubicon to prevent his being prosecuted when his Consulship ended.
                    You've yet to provide any proof of a crime though. My point was that a sitting president could not be indicted. The US Constitution has other means to remove a president for high crimes and misdemeanors. Its called impeachment.
                    Last edited by TopHatter; 09 Jan 18,, 13:30. Reason: Last Warning. Keep the invective OUT of this discussion

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                      Donald Trump was the target of an extremely concerted and dedicated Russian influence operation, and that his and his people's judgments were so exceedingly poor, their ignorance so vast, their gullibility so great, and their ethics and morals so absent, that they were getting taken in by it as unwitting fools, and that's something that's very dangerous for the country.
                      Marvelous. Absolutely accurate IMO, could not have said it any better myself. Can I quote that elsewhere at some point in the future?
                      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                        Marvelous. Absolutely accurate IMO, could not have said it any better myself. Can I quote that elsewhere at some point in the future?
                        By all means. The Mongolian Candidate™ though, is mine.
                        "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

                        Comment


                        • So Russia magically knew that Trump could wipe the floor with 17 other candidates and then beat Hillary in order to unleash a foreign policy hostile to them. They wanted NATO too meet their defense obligations ahead of schedule and for the US to permanently station US troops in Poland and Baltics? They wanted us to lob missiles at Assad and screw thier buddy John Podesta who was working so hard on their behalf? Uh-huh sure.

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                          • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                            So Russia magically knew that Trump could wipe the floor with 17 other candidates and then beat Hillary in order to unleash a foreign policy hostile to them. They wanted NATO too meet their defense obligations ahead of schedule and for the US to permanently station US troops in Poland and Baltics? They wanted us to lob missiles at Assad and screw thier buddy John Podesta who was working so hard on their behalf? Uh-huh sure.
                            Practically all of the Russian activity we know about took place after he became the presumptive nominee. Like I said, there's no master stroke conspiracy, with Trump cultivated and positioned by puppet masters as some kind of Mongolian Candidate the Russians were maneuvering into place over the course of many years, but that they sensed opportunities as they arose and acted on them, exploiting and attempting to exploit them in an increasing manner.
                            Last edited by Ironduke; 10 Jan 18,, 16:09.
                            "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

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                            • I, too, failed to see any benefit the Russians had derived from the Trump Presidency. The only possible one is the divide between Europe and the US but Western Europe had kept American JAVELINS out of the Ukraines.
                              Chimo

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                              • Glenn Simpson at the Senate Judiciary: https://www.feinstein.senate.gov/pub...t-redacted.pdf

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