Originally posted by JAD_333
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JAD,
I don't think Trump Jr. had any idea of the snake's nest he was walking into, and should be grateful that it was just a lobbyist plumping to get the Magnitsky act overturned.
and not just Jr alone, but Kushner and Manafort.There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
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Originally posted by astralis View PostJAD,
it takes a pretty incredible combination of lack of ethics and stupidity to do this. if nothing else, this demonstrated his -willingness- to collude.
and not just Jr alone, but Kushner and Manafort.
he's sitting in a meeting to collect opposition research from an outsider.
happens all the time.
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bfng,
he's sitting in a meeting to collect opposition research from an outsider.
happens all the time.There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
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Originally posted by snapper View PostNow we are getting the "collusion is not a crime" defence. Well sorry but treason has to be.
Getting information on a political opponent is not treason, not even when presumably given by a hostile power.
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Originally posted by JAD_333 View PostYes, he went to the meeting thinking the dirt on Clinton was coming from the Russian government because that's what Goldstone told him in the e-mail. That, however, as any legal expert would tell us, is not evidence that Russia was in fact attempting to help the Trump campaign.
Don't get me wrong. I am only focusing on the e-mail's veracity. In the overall scheme of things, Russia may well have attempted to help Trump. Also, Trump jr's readiness to receive dirt on Clinton from what he thought was coming from the Russian government has an air of potential collusion about it. Supposing dirt on Clinton was delivered and supposing Russia was the source, what would have come next? More requests from Trump jr to Russia for information? Russia asking for a favor in return? The hole would just get deeper. I don't think Trump Jr. had any idea of the snake's nest he was walking into, and should be grateful that it was just a lobbyist plumping to get the Magnitsky act overturned.
He was told the ostensible source was the government of Russia. It's in the Goldstone e-mail.
It appears you have a point, but not one explainable in terms of context. I'm stuck on the idea that at the time Trump jr took the meeting, there was relatively little PUBLIC awareness of Russia's involvement. So his antenna was not raised as it would be today. But you seem to be saying that Trump jr's meeting was an indication that "collusion" was already underway, and it's only surfacing now. I don't want to set up a strawman here. So I'll let you clarify what you meant.
The point of my original post is that this new information further erodes claims that all the contacts with people connected to the Russian government were completely innocent. The 'nothing to see here' attitude simply isn't supported by the facts any more. There may not be evidence of a crime, but you know better than most that criminal behaviour is only one of the issues here. The idea that senior members of a Presidential campaign would do this is virtually beyond belief....and we haven't seen all the info Mueller has yet.sigpic
Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C
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Originally posted by zraver View Postonly in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.
This whole administration has been compromised from the start but don't let bother you - you're a fine patriot no doubt.
Edit: Just got sent this article from which I quote a small part;
Mother Jones: If you were involved in the Trump-Russia investigation, who or what would you hone in on?
Steven Hall: Mike Flynn, no doubt. It’s fun to think about what I would do if I was a Russian intelligence officer in charge of running these various operations. Not just the influence operation, which it’s quite clear now was pretty successful in increasing the likelihood that Donald Trump would be elected. But if I was the SVR [Russian foreign intelligence] guy who was told, “Okay, your job is to try to find whether there are members of the campaign who would be willing to play ball with us,” No. 1 on my list would be Flynn. First of all, he’s a former chief of the DIA [Defense Intelligence Agency]. He’s an intelligence officer, so he understands how discreet and clandestine you need to be if you’re going to cooperate on that level. And then, there’s the future: He’s probably going to land a pretty good job, assuming Trump wins. So it’s a win-win-win in terms of targeting Flynn. Furthermore, he’s come to Moscow. He’s accepted money from Russian companies, and he’s tried to conceal that. So on paper, he’s a really good-looking candidate for a spy.Last edited by snapper; 18 Jul 17,, 17:05.
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Originally posted by zraver View PostNot treason, not even close. Treason is the only specific crime defined in the US Constitution. It is defined as; Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
Getting information on a political opponent is not treason, not even when presumably given by a hostile power.
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Browder (the Magnitsy Act guy) on Veselnitskaya (the 'lawyer'):
http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/bill-b...mp-jr-meeting/
Some lawyer. I do not get any money from it but I do recommend his book.
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Originally posted by snapper View PostIf you believe this did not give Moscow "aid and comfort" you are on drugs or something.
tbm3fan
Which is exactly why I didn't use the word treason but used the word collaborator. They were willing to collaborate with a known sworn adversary of the United States just as you seem to be willing to accept it, given your excuses, which would put you in the same boat as them
When you have some proof let me know.
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