Originally posted by tbm3fan
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Fascinating to watch the reaction of GOPers to Donnie Jnr's emails.
We have the son & close confidant of a Presidential candidate talking about acquiring information on his major rival from the Russian Government as part of an attempt by that government to get his father elected. He tells his father's campaign manager & another family member & close confidant. They attend a meeting to acquire the information from someone who is supposed to be there as an intermediary but are disappointed.
The son of a Presidential candidate attempting to acquire information on a rival from a hostile foreign power.....and lying about it right up to the point where he knows it is going to be revealed. Just say it out loud a few times to grasp the gravity of that.
All of this at a time we now know Russia was actively trying to influence the outcome of the election in other ways.
One reaction has been to stick grimly to the same line that has been pushed for months - nothing happened, nothing happened, nothing happened. Apparently if you say 'nothing burger' three times and turn around none of this happens.
The other reaction has been to avoid discussing what has actually happened and focus on 'what crime has been committed?', as if strict legality is the only thing that this has ever been about. As if there have never been any other questions or issues raised about Trump's dealings with Russia.
Then there are the conspiracy theorists trying to concoct some elaborate story about this being a set up...or something, and the ones who just keep screaming '.....but Clinton' and '.....but Obama'.
It really is fascinating to watch. I look forward to reactions to subsequent revelations. It really is great fun. I think trying to treat each one as a completely separate issue unrelated to anything else will continue to be a popular response.sigpic
Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C
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Originally posted by DOR View PostThe law specifically forbids an contribution, in cash or kind, from a foreign citizen or other entity to a US political campaign.
“The Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA) prohibits any foreign national from contributing, donating or spending funds in connection with any federal, state, or local election in the United States, either directly or indirectly. It is also unlawful to help foreign nationals violate that ban or to solicit, receive or accept contributions or donations from them. Persons who knowingly and willfully engage in these activities may be subject to fines and/or imprisonment.”
As for professional services donations, …
“Generally, an individual may volunteer personal services to a federal candidate or federal political committee without making a contribution. The Act provides this volunteer "exemption" as long as the individual performing the service is not compensated by anyone. The Commission has addressed applicability of this exemption to volunteer activity by a foreign national, as explained below.
In AO 1987-25, the Commission allowed a foreign national student to provide uncompensated volunteer services to a Presidential campaign. By contrast, the decision in AO 1981-51 prohibited a foreign national artist from donating his services in connection with fundraising for a Senate campaign.”
And, …
“Under Commission regulations it is unlawful to knowingly provide substantial assistance to foreign nationals making contributions or donations in connection with any U.S. election.”f
https://transition.fec.gov/pages/bro.../foreign.shtml
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So Rinat Akhmetshin came along to meet the smaller Trump, Manafort and Kushner too? Oh dear... when you think it cannot get worse it does. Akhmetshin is SVR; Muscovite CIA/'MI6'.
Now it becomes even more important to know who is running these disclosures? Was Comrade (he was Soviet GRU before switching to SVR) Rinat told to confess his presence at this meeting by Moscow? If so it would imply they are losing patience with Trump; they want the sanctions ended/Magnitsy law ended and the two other residences that Obama took from them back. Is it meant as pressure or have they lost their patience with Trump altogether and are just trying to cause as much harm as possible? The other alternative is that some US IC group is leaking these morsels of information trying to pressure Trump; was Akhmetshin forced to come forward? The FBI apparently said they had not heard of the Trump junior meeting. So if it is the good guys apparently not the FBI though there are other people who may have access to this information. Let's hope it's not the Muscovites.Last edited by snapper; 14 Jul 17,, 18:34.
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Originally posted by snapper View PostSo Rinat Akhmetshin came along to meet the smaller Trump, Manafort and Kushner too? Oh dear... when you think it cannot get worse it does. Akhmetshin is SVR; Muscovite CIA/'MI6'.
Now it becomes even more important to know who is running these disclosures? Was Comrade (he was Soviet GRU before switching to SVR) Rinat told to confess his presence at this meeting by Moscow? If so it would imply they are losing patience with Trump; they want the sanctions ended/Magnitsy law ended and the two other residences that Obama took from them back. Is it meant as pressure or have they lost their patience with Trump altogether and are just trying to cause as much harm as possible? The other alternative is that some US IC group is leaking these morsels of information trying to pressure Trump; was Akhmetshin forced to come forward? The FBI apparently said they had not heard of the Trump junior meeting. So if it is the good guys apparently not the FBI though there are other people who may have access to this information. Let's hope it's not the Muscovites.
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Originally posted by Bigfella View PostFascinating to watch the reaction of GOPers to Donnie Jnr's emails.
We have the son & close confidant of a Presidential candidate talking about acquiring information on his major rival from the Russian Government as part of an attempt by that government to get his father elected. He tells his father's campaign manager & another family member & close confidant. They attend a meeting to acquire the information from someone who is supposed to be there as an intermediary but are disappointed.
The son of a Presidential candidate attempting to acquire information on a rival from a hostile foreign power.....and lying about it right up to the point where he knows it is going to be revealed. Just say it out loud a few times to grasp the gravity of that.
All of this at a time we now know Russia was actively trying to influence the outcome of the election in other ways.
One reaction has been to stick grimly to the same line that has been pushed for months - nothing happened, nothing happened, nothing happened. Apparently if you say 'nothing burger' three times and turn around none of this happens.
The other reaction has been to avoid discussing what has actually happened and focus on 'what crime has been committed?', as if strict legality is the only thing that this has ever been about. As if there have never been any other questions or issues raised about Trump's dealings with Russia.
Then there are the conspiracy theorists trying to concoct some elaborate story about this being a set up...or something, and the ones who just keep screaming '.....but Clinton' and '.....but Obama'.
It really is fascinating to watch. I look forward to reactions to subsequent revelations. It really is great fun. I think trying to treat each one as a completely separate issue unrelated to anything else will continue to be a popular response.
2. Rinat Akhmetshin the former Soviet intelligence officer who was present is a paid DNC operative employed by Fusion GPS a DNC op research firm.
3. Getting information pro bono is not illegal. If receiving information was illegal, let alone merely attempting to gain information, then the DNC's collusion with the Ukraine would be a crime.
4. The only federal crime for collusion is for price fixing, its literally a made up offense in the context of political information.
5. Federal campaign finance laws have never before been read to view pro bono information as a thing of value. They have always been read to view info as a personal service which is legal.
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Originally posted by zraver View Post
2. Rinat Akhmetshin the former Soviet intelligence officer who was present is a paid DNC operative employed by Fusion GPS a DNC op research firm.
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Originally posted by Bigfella View PostFascinating to watch the reaction of GOPers to Donnie Jnr's emails.
We have the son & close confidant of a Presidential candidate talking about acquiring information on his major rival from the Russian Government as part of an attempt by that government to get his father elected. He tells his father's campaign manager & another family member & close confidant. They attend a meeting to acquire the information from someone who is supposed to be there as an intermediary but are disappointed.
The son of a Presidential candidate attempting to acquire information on a rival from a hostile foreign power.....and lying about it right up to the point where he knows it is going to be revealed. Just say it out loud a few times to grasp the gravity of that.
All of this at a time we now know Russia was actively trying to influence the outcome of the election in other ways.
One reaction has been to stick grimly to the same line that has been pushed for months - nothing happened, nothing happened, nothing happened. Apparently if you say 'nothing burger' three times and turn around none of this happens.
The other reaction has been to avoid discussing what has actually happened and focus on 'what crime has been committed?', as if strict legality is the only thing that this has ever been about. As if there have never been any other questions or issues raised about Trump's dealings with Russia.
Then there are the conspiracy theorists trying to concoct some elaborate story about this being a set up...or something, and the ones who just keep screaming '.....but Clinton' and '.....but Obama'.
It really is fascinating to watch. I look forward to reactions to subsequent revelations. It really is great fun. I think trying to treat each one as a completely separate issue unrelated to anything else will continue to be a popular response.
The United States has two powerful countries in this world that are adversarial namely Russia and China. They will always be adversarial spanning the range of mischief to outright hostile. They will never be anything but and they understand that. One can bet that neither Putin nor Xi look at us and think about how we can be friends. They look at us and wonder how we can be neutralized for their strategic gain. In short you don't ever get in bed with them for anything.
Yet we end up with this neophyte, this idiot, this collaborator (multiple choice) who thinks we can make friends with these countries. He thinks he can get in bed with them. His father believes it to be standard practice. I believe that any American citizen who lobbies for either country or who meets back channel with the government of either as a private citizen that their ass is grass.
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Originally posted by tbm3fan View PostI'm with you truly amazing to watch the spin. Forget the ethics or lack of being exhibited.
The United States has two powerful countries in this world that are adversarial namely Russia and China. They will always be adversarial spanning the range of mischief to outright hostile. They will never be anything but and they understand that. One can bet that neither Putin nor Xi look at us and think about how we can be friends. They look at us and wonder how we can be neutralized for their strategic gain. In short you don't ever get in bed with them for anything.
Yet we end up with this neophyte, this idiot, this collaborator (multiple choice) who thinks we can make friends with these countries. He thinks he can get in bed with them. His father believes it to be standard practice. I believe that any American citizen who lobbies for either country or who meets back channel with the government of either as a private citizen that their ass is grass.
Oh, the fact remains that during the 2016 election cycle Fusion GPS was a paid agent of the DNC and Rinat Akhmetshin worked for them and was thus an agent of the DNC.
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tbm3fan,
what disturbs me more than the actions of the Trump campaign and the Trump family (we already KNEW they were altogether without a sense of ethics, honor, and responsibility) are the so-called conservatives and Republicans whom look the other ay. not just on the Russia issue, but on his general lack of fitness for the office.
Trump outdoes Obama in spades on everything that they accused Obama of-- narcissism, weakness against foreign enemies, lack of experience-- yet suddenly they either have no comment or display a singular lack of concern. all for what? what concrete legislative policy victories have they won for this? you can't even call it Machiavellian if you get nothing for selling out your honor.
or even worse-- the types whom LIKE Putin and don't even bother trying to look the other way. grab 'em by the p*ssy? sure, as long as it's DEM ones he's grabbing.There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
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Originally posted by astralis View Posttbm3fan,
what disturbs me more than the actions of the Trump campaign and the Trump family (we already KNEW they were altogether without a sense of ethics, honor, and responsibility) are the so-called conservatives and Republicans whom look the other ay. not just on the Russia issue, but on his general lack of fitness for the office.
Trump outdoes Obama in spades on everything that they accused Obama of-- narcissism, weakness against foreign enemies, lack of experience-- yet suddenly they either have no comment or display a singular lack of concern. all for what? what concrete legislative policy victories have they won for this? you can't even call it Machiavellian if you get nothing for selling out your honor.
or even worse-- the types whom LIKE Putin and don't even bother trying to look the other way. grab 'em by the p*ssy? sure, as long as it's DEM ones he's grabbing.
What a bizarre statement for you too make.
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lol, i see you defend the foreign policy bit because the whole narcissism and lack of experience thing is too hard to challenge, huh...:-)
in any case, US standing among our allies have declined in a wholesale way since he became President, and i don't see either NK or China deterred.
but that's all beside the point. Nixon was far better at foreign policy than Donald Trump will ever be, yet he proved unfit for the Presidency not just because of his criminality but even more importantly, from his serious character defects. it is the same thing with Trump, only even more so. to put it another way, can you honestly tell me that you are comfortable in the leadership, considered judgment, moral courage, and steady competency of Donald J Trump in the event of an economic/political/military crisis?There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
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Originally posted by astralis View Postlol, i see you defend the foreign policy bit because the whole narcissism and lack of experience thing is too hard to challenge, huh...:-)
in any case, US standing among our allies have declined in a wholesale way since he became President, and i don't see either NK or China deterred.
{quote]but that's all beside the point. Nixon was far better at foreign policy than Donald Trump will ever be, yet he proved unfit for the Presidency not just because of his criminality but even more importantly, from his serious character defects. it is the same thing with Trump, only even more so. to put it another way, can you honestly tell me that you are comfortable in the leadership, considered judgment, moral courage, and steady competency of Donald J Trump in the event of an economic/political/military crisis?[/QUOTE]
I don't trust him much I just trust him more than I did Obama or would have Clinton. At least he has some good people around him like Mattis and McMaster.
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Much of the decline in global perceptions of the US have a lot to do with Trump pulling out of the Paris suicide pact. Well as it turns out, that is a reflection of their science denial not ours. In what has been billed as a show down, Hockey Stick Mann refused to share the raw data and is likely facing a criminal probe in his future. His contempt of court and the refusal of NASA, NOAA and CRU to release the raw data and the sheer impossibility of their revisions means AGW is on life support.
http://principia-scientific.org/brea...ey-stick-mann/
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Originally posted by Bigfella View PostFascinating to watch the reaction of GOPers to Donnie Jnr's emails.
I understand your fascination by efforts to downplay the meeting's significance, and I hope you'll forgive my fascination with those who overplay it. Take, for example, this from your post:
We have the son & close confidant of a Presidential candidate talking about acquiring information on his major rival from the Russian Government as part of an attempt by that government to get his father elected. (bold added)
All of this at a time we now know Russia was actively trying to influence the outcome of the election in other ways.
The meeting is revealing in another way. Trump Jr. was anxious to set up this meeting because, of course, he wanted to get his hands on incriminating evidence against HRC. But, it also suggests there was no collusion going on between the campaign and Russia, at least at the time, because if, in fact, people in the campaign were already colluding with Russia, it would have made no sense for Donald Jr. to hold the meeting. He would have been extremely leery of other Russians claiming similar ties to the Kremlin, ties he could have easily checked out with any Russians the campaign was already colluding with. Moreover, if you want to hide collusion you wouldn't have meetings with Russians outside the ones you are already colluding with. So, ironic as it may seem. the fact the meeting was held suggests that the Trump campaign was not colluding with the Russians at the time. I'm not claiming that is the case, but it could be.
One reaction has been to stick grimly to the same line that has been pushed for months - nothing happened, nothing happened, nothing happened. Apparently if you say 'nothing burger' three times and turn around none of this happens.
The other reaction has been to avoid discussing what has actually happened and focus on 'what crime has been committed?', as if strict legality is the only thing that this has ever been about. As if there have never been any other questions or issues raised about Trump's dealings with Russia.
Then there are the conspiracy theorists trying to concoct some elaborate story about this being a set up...or something, and the ones who just keep screaming '.....but Clinton' and '.....but Obama'.
You might find this interview with a former prosecutor interesting. I know it's Fox, but it's straightforward.
http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/55079...#sp=show-clipsTo be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato
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