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Thread: The battle of Brexit!

  1. #1471
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    Hello from France.
    This is my 1st post here, I beg your pardon for my not-so-fluent English.

    Iíve been reading this discussion with much interest.

    I still canít understand how the Leave campaign successfully lured British people into that mess. Brexit may not be a disaster, but it will be an economic problem for both UK and EU, and even more so if there is no deal.
    But now itís more than time for Britain to leave.

    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ion-for-the-uk

    "Published 6 April 2016"

    And for the Leavers side:
    https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/

    Note: "BY Daniel Hannan / 21 June 2016"
    As in one of the founders of Vote Leave. Or as The Guardian termed it "the man who brought you Brexit".

    Thank you kato for these very interesting links. I think 1 sentence on the UK governmentís page sums it all up :
    "The UK has secured a special status in a reformed EU."
    That is what the British governments have been doing for 40 years : always demanding a special deal for Britain, from Thatcherís "I want my money back" to Cameronís blackmail before the Brexit vote. Hence the governmentís web page that proudly sounds like : "no need to leave, weíre already out !" (not sure it is the better idea to make people vote Remain, though)
    But, while never fully accepting the common rules, these governments very effectively used their position inside the EU, in order to make it a common market with as few political power as possible. They supported each step towards liberalized markets and free trade agreements with other countries, and each step that would make decisions in the EU more difficult to make (such as the adhesion of Turkey, for example).

    So now the EU is not so far from Hannanís dream "a common market without a common government". As the Alstom-Siemens story has recently shown, the EU Commission makes more efforts to preserve free competition on the inner market than to protect European industries from the state-supported giants from China or the USA. Hannanís dream happens to be also Trumpís, Xi Jinpinís and Putinís dream.

    Now for 3 years, the British government has been demanding a special status outside the EU. While the US aggressiveness and the overwhelming power of China would need their attention so much, the European representatives have spent most of their time and energy trying to make a deal with a country that doesnít know if he wants one. That is one more hit the British governments have done to the EU construction, hopefully the last one.

    In the region where I leave, there is an old expression when welcoming a visitor at home : "chabatz díentrar" Ė literally : finish entering.
    Itís time for Britain to finish leavingÖ

  2. #1472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steph View Post
    While the US aggressiveness and the overwhelming power of China would need their attention so much, the European representatives have spent most of their time and energy trying to make a deal with a country that doesnít know if he wants one.
    I wouldn't quite say it that way.

    The "Union of 27" went quite prepared into the negotiations, and had them handled by staff dedicated to that purpose. Yes, you occasionally have had others from the political side commenting from the sideline, but for the past three years this has always come in a quite organized, prepared fashion. And they did it in such a way that it at best minimally impacted more important politics. And they've kept doing it that way up to now.

    Just take early April as an example. Theresa May goes to Paris to beg for an extension on the eve of their deadline. The EU, same day? Hosts their annual EU-China summit with Xi Jinping in Brussels to hash out trade policies.

  3. #1473
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyr View Post
    This is what I was talking about DE . Its what happens when you allow a remainer to negotiate on your behalf...total confusion! Not only was a remainer allowed to negotiate for the UK. But also an unelected Federalist clique has been in charge on the EU side. One which follows orders. We are now 3 years since a referendum when a very simple question was asked.
    Pretty sad all around. This is why it was so confusing to understand. Every time you think there is movement in reality there isn't any. Words said have no meaning even when the PM says it.

    The recent EU elections have come and gone and that vote back in 2016 has just been reaffirmed. Both Labour and Tories have been decimated and the winner the Brexit party can only be tamed by the Tories giving the PM job to Boris Johnson, Shame coz I think Rory Stewart is more than capable, but unfortunately he is a remainer and so that won't happen.
    Time for a new party and new politics as both of the older stalwarts have let the people down. Let them introspect from the back benches of the opposition.

    I would agree that the Uk (which is a sovereign nation Kato the last time I looked) in the main back in 2016 would have been happy with powers that allowed the flow of movement to be controlled. Which is only a little bit more than the Danes have put in place already and the last time I looked were looking for an extension. But EU arrogance and inflexibility didn't allow for this and so Cameron came back with an empty magazine, hence you have the referendum result. Personally I wouldn't give anybody any money at all until certain criterias are met. A bit like having a pet, You only give it a treat for performing a task or a trick. If the pet doesn't like the house rules, shoot it and buy a new one!
    The question is what next. Nobody knows, that is the problem. Industry & the markets don't like uncertainty & unpredictability.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 10 Jun 19, at 15:56.

  4. #1474
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyr View Post
    Its what happens when you allow a remainer to negotiate on your behalf...total confusion!
    Take a look at those who negotiated Theresa May's 'deal': The first Secretary of State for Leaving the EU (Brexit Minister) was a 'leaver', David Davis who suffered from the dellusion that German car companies could negotiate on behalf of all EU members. When the cold reality finally hit that although the German motor industries might wish to continue exporting to the UK there were far more interests at stake and he would have to negotiate with a representive of the EU he proclaimed it all unfair and resigned in a huff. Nor had he ever considered the Irish border problem of course - none of them had. There was as I vaguely recall some embarrasement over his Departments somewhat edited version of their 'impact analysis' of Brexit on 50 or so areas of the British economy. So off he stomped in a huff muttering "unfair" under his breath.

    Next up was the 'Honourable' Dominic Raab who's has the moral integrity of a dung beetle (if that). He of course is another Brexiteer. Raab got into loads of trouble from the start by trying to start negotiations of what Davis had agreed to all over again. Then there was a fiasco of the preparations for cross channel trade when a contract was given to run ships from Ramsgate (a harbour that needs continual dredging due to it's proximity to the Goodwin sands) to a company that had no ships. P&O (who operate ferries from Dover) and Eurotunnel were apparently excluded from the bidding so sued and were awarded millions in damages. The final coup de gras of this fiasco came when the local Council that owns Ramsgate Harbour (Thanet District Council) pulled out making the whole idea impossible. I used to sail from Ramsgate in my teenage summer holidays and still have friends in the area.

    Back to Raab he resigned when the Cabinet agreed the deal that Davis and he negotiated - the May 'deal'! So when the 'deal' was put up for a vote in Parliament the man who negotiated it voted against it! He was replaced by the still serving Stephen Barclay who I imagine is twiddling his thumbs mostly.

    So you see the Brexiteers did do the negotiations. They discovered that their lies about the 'easiest deal in history' were not going to be proved true just because they said. They could not reconcile the contradictions of the hard border on the channel and no border in Ireland and get free access to the single market without sharing a legal jurisdiction etc... It's a bit like trying to square the circle for them. None of them really understood the implications and they all went in deluded by their own lies for which they are desperately seeking to find an excuse. The best they have found is the new lie that 'the easiest deal in history' actually meant 'no deal'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freyr View Post
    The recent EU elections have come and gone and that vote back in 2016 has just been reaffirmed.
    Remain Parties received a greater percentage of the vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steph View Post
    Hello from France.
    Salut d'Ukraine!

  5. #1475
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    RAOFLAO... Man this soo funny..thanks guys!

  6. #1476
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    Today's Speech by Rory Stewart...play 2:10


  7. #1477
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post

    Remain Parties received a greater percentage of the vote.
    Most Brexiteers didn't vote in the EU election because they never have and never will....If Boris becomes PM then he will bring on board the Brexit party and its over...and You and REmain need to adjust to the New political reality, not make believe anymore!

  8. #1478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steph View Post
    Hello from France.
    This is my 1st post here, I beg your pardon for my not-so-fluent English.

    I’ve been reading this discussion with much interest.

    I still can’t understand how the Leave campaign successfully lured British people into that mess. Brexit may not be a disaster, but it will be an economic problem for both UK and EU, and even more so if there is no deal.
    But now it’s more than time for Britain to leave.
    Bonjour Steph, and the French have done very well from farming subsidies to the extent that nobody knows what reality actually is anymore. Everybody can point fingers Mon ami


    Thank you kato for these very interesting links. I think 1 sentence on the UK government’s page sums it all up :
    "The UK has secured a special status in a reformed EU."
    That is what the British governments have been doing for 40 years : always demanding a special deal for Britain, from Thatcher’s "I want my money back" to Cameron’s blackmail before the Brexit vote. Hence the government’s web page that proudly sounds like : "no need to leave, we’re already out !" (not sure it is the better idea to make people vote Remain, though)
    Kinda sounding like Kato's twin here but going slightly off the rails
    But, while never fully accepting the common rules, these governments very effectively used their position inside the EU, in order to make it a common market with as few political power as possible. They supported each step towards liberalized markets and free trade agreements with other countries, and each step that would make decisions in the EU more difficult to make (such as the adhesion of Turkey, for example).
    France has been a major road block for Turkeys ascension, for quite some time actually.

    So now the EU is not so far from Hannan’s dream "a common market without a common government". As the Alstom-Siemens story has recently shown, the EU Commission makes more efforts to preserve free competition on the inner market than to protect European industries from the state-supported giants from China or the USA. Hannan’s dream happens to be also Trump’s, Xi Jinpin’s and Putin’s dream.
    Gibberish!

    Now for 3 years, the British government has been demanding a special status outside the EU. While the US aggressiveness and the overwhelming power of China would need their attention so much, the European representatives have spent most of their time and energy trying to make a deal with a country that doesn’t know if he wants one. That is one more hit the British governments have done to the EU construction, hopefully the last one.
    So Chess isn't your game of choice?

    In the region where I leave, there is an old expression when welcoming a visitor at home : "chabatz d’entrar" – literally : finish entering.
    It’s time for Britain to finish leaving…
    and return to the mission of federalisation?

  9. #1479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyr View Post
    If Boris becomes PM then he will bring on board the Brexit party and its over...and You and REmain need to adjust to the New political reality, not make believe anymore!
    Lol you talk in 'scare headlines'... First you alleged some mysterious and illicit funding of the remain campaign; sadly wrong only mysterious and possibly illicit funding was for the leave campaign. Then we have 'remainers' negotiated to deal: Wrong again... Both Davis and Raab were leavers. Now you say;

    Quote Originally Posted by Freyr View Post
    Most Brexiteers didn't vote in the EU election because they never have and never will....
    When the Brexit Party got most votes.

    Then you suggest;

    Quote Originally Posted by Freyr View Post
    If Boris becomes PM then he will bring on board the Brexit party and its over...
    So pray tell how he will do that? Will he form a coalition Government with them perhaps? That may be difficult and have no point since they have no MPs in the House of Commons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freyr View Post
    You and REmain need to adjust to the New political reality, not make believe anymore!
    The unicorns will save you!

  10. #1480
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    Results of first round of the Tory leadership voting, apparently held yesterday were;

    Name:  _107365911_optimised-tory_ballot-nc.png
Views: 56
Size:  537.1 KB

    On the basis of this round seven candidates may go forward. I expect Rory Stewart and Matt Hancock may drop out and put in with Jeremy Hunt but we shall see. On the lhistory of past Tory leadership races the person who gets the most votes in the first round always loses eventually but that does not make a scientific law. It does look to me that the final run off will between Boris Johnson and Jeremy Hunt and that vote is for all Conservative Party members (of which there a couple of thousand left).
    Last edited by snapper; 14 Jun 19, at 04:04.

  11. #1481
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Right, now the time is right for Boriiiiiss to strike

    It is all coming true

    Yayy!!
    Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Jun 19, at 06:07.

  12. #1482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyr View Post
    and return to the mission of federalisation?
    Absolutely.
    The USA (320 Million inhabitants), India (1300 M) , Russia (150 M hab), Brazil (200 M) are federal states with central governments that can protect their inner economy, agriculture, industry, services, jobs and population, and can have an impact on international negociation in order to do that.
    China though not federal has that power, too.
    If the EU was to remain a bunch of 27 states with less that 80M inhabitants each, with no common will and no common policies except free trade for all, the actual independence of that 27 preys would be an illusion. When core industries like electricity (EDP in Portugal), ports (Piraeus) or turbine factories (Alstom) are bought by state-supported firms from the USA and China, what we need is not more free trade, but more solidarity, more common government, and yes a form of federalization.

    But of course, the UK brexiters are free to believe that they can do better all by themselves.

  13. #1483
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    Poll of Tory Party members that I got pointed at and the lunacy that has overcome the Conservative and Unionist Party:

    Name:  D9VDfKXW4AAPsjX.jpg
Views: 32
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    In other words they are no longer Unionists or care about keeping the UK together - nor even Tories who believe in conservativism and it's values as they are willing to destroy their own Party and the British economy for one single suicidal last gasp. To think I was once a member...

  14. #1484
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    ^Not buying it.

    I don't know what to make of this poll. The answers seem more emotional than rational. They are senseless.

    Most Conservative members would see party destroyed to achieve Brexit | YouGov | Jun 18 2019

    Full results of the poll with questions linked here(pdf)

    Approaching half (46%) of Conservative members would be happy to see Nigel Farage, a man who would otherwise be considered their most dangerous political foe, take over the reins of their party. This includes a majority (56%) of those members who voted to leave the EU in 2016.
    Why then does Farage not show up in the earlier graphic which has Boris leading and is in the pdf?
    Last edited by Double Edge; 19 Jun 19, at 00:04.

  15. #1485
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    Because he's neither a candidate nor even a member of the Tories?

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