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Thread: The battle of Brexit!

  1. #931
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    Not the first time he's accused someone else of being me before... think its maybe an insight into the mind of a conspiracy loon, or (more likely) just old grouch in the early stages of dementia

  2. #932
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    Anyway, its good to see Corbyn coming out for membership of the customs union... from there its a pretty short step to single market membership. Once you commit to those two, then you may as well just stay in the EU. Perhaps he's playing the long game... he cant become PM without the support of the remainers, and as much as I think his far-left politics are foolish I'd take him in a heartbeat over the ugly-nationalist and fantasist brexiteers.

  3. #933
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I am delighted to hear this.

    Does this mean you will now do us the honour of addressing the point? Do you dispute the British Governments own forecasts that UK GDP will be lower out of Europe rather than if the UK had remained in the EU? If so on what grounds? Do you think a decrease in UK GDP (compared to if the UK remained in the EU) will make it easier for any future British Government to spend another £350m per week on the NHS (or say on defence or scientific research)? If not were the British people misled during the referendum? If they were on what grounds do you think it possible to deny 'the people' another referendum?

    I am not entirely sure what you mean by 'other characters' - perhaps you think I am 'zara' as well but I have no knowledge of Ireland - met some Paddy's occasionally but never been there. Only been to Manchester twice in my life. My criticism of your method of 'argument' (if you wish to term it such) is merely that it is not an argument. It is 'sniping'; instead of answering the point you chose merely to comment on the 'unintelligent' conversation when they at least are on topic and trying to be civil. I merely urge that answer the points that others make rather than criticise others for unrelated theories of your own - 'sniping' as it may be called. If you have nothing to contribute about a topic fine - I know nothing of Indian affairs - stay out instead of just insulting others who are discussing the subject. My best wishes to you. Au revoir.
    I'm not here to address any of your points or the other you...A year ago maybe ..before you revealed yourself as the site psycho...since then, once I realised I was talking to a contrived, manufactured pack of lies with glimpses of actual fact. I've deliberately gone out of my way to flip you the bird at every opportunity. Its been such fun winding you up and your fellow idiots. I can seriously say I've never met such an opinionated collection of imbecilic idiocy in my entire life. You truly are mesmerisingly dumb and incapable of any form of intelligent debate about anything that differs from your own twisted point of view. Bye and good luck with Putin!
    Last edited by Toby; 25 Feb 18, at 21:31.

  4. #934
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    Not the first time he's accused someone else of being me before... think its maybe an insight into the mind of a conspiracy loon, or (more likely) just old grouch in the early stages of dementia
    Barcelona is a good choice but its still shit compared to London as is Frankfurt and even Paris and Dublin ..haha it's a great place but please don't be ridiculous!!!! New york is where anything and everything will go ..simply because its more fun and not boring!
    Last edited by Toby; 25 Feb 18, at 20:27.

  5. #935
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I'm not here to address any of your points or the other you...A year ago maybe ..before you revealed yourself as the site psycho...since then, once I realised I was talking to a contrived, manufactured pack of lies with glimpses of actual fact. I've deliberately gone out of my way to flip you the bird at every opportunity. Its been such fun winding you up and your fellow idiots. I can seriously say I've never met such an opinionated collection of imbecilic idiocy in my entire life. You truly are mesmerisingly dumb and incapable of any form of intelligent debate about anything that differs from your own twisted point of view. Bye and good luck with Putin!
    So just more insults... oh well.

  6. #936
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    So just more insults... oh well.
    Thats your department...remember?? Or are you also suffering from Altzheimers....Whilst on this site I've been threatened with physical violence by a one armed loon. Called an idiot by you . A racist by a drug induced tit. Plus you've never once acknowledged any inaccuracy on your part and neither have your fellow 'academic twerps' where as I have. I know I don't know everything..unlike yourself who clearly knows everything....
    Give my regards to the Azov.
    Last edited by Toby; 02 Mar 18, at 21:17.

  7. #937
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    The flaming and name-calling in this thread needs to stop right now please.

    Debate the issue, don't insult the person.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  8. #938
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    Jacob Rees-Mogg attacks 'absurd' EU plan for Irish border

    Writing in the Daily Telegraph, the prominent Eurosceptic praised the prime minister and urged the EU to respond with "wisdom and not aggression".

    On Friday, Mrs May warned "no-one will get everything they want" from talks.

    EU officials are now scrutinising Mrs May's speech ahead of a fresh round of negotiations next week.

    Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt, told the BBC's Today programme the prime minister had shown in her speech it was possible to have "frictionless trade" with the European Union while leaving the single market and the customs union.
    Speaking at London's Mansion House, Mrs May set out the UK's hopes for a future EU economic partnership, calling for "pragmatic common sense" in negotiations.

    Single market access would be "less than it is now", she said, and the UK would have to pay into some EU agencies.

    But she said she would not threaten to walk out of talks and in a message to the EU added: "Let's get on with it."

    She said all sides of the argument had to now face "hard facts".
    Mr Rees-Mogg praised her "good speech", saying it delivered on the government's promise to take the UK out of the customs union, the single market and the European Court of Justice.

    "There are inevitably a few small points that will concern Leave campaigners but we must all recognise that everyone will have to give up something to get a deal, so now is not the time to nitpick," he wrote.

    Mrs May's address was also cautiously welcomed by pro-European Conservatives.

    Writing in the same paper, Tory Remainer Nicky Morgan said her speech was a "welcome dose of realism".

    "The EU can't say they don't know what the UK wants anymore," she added.

    Mr Hunt told the BBC Mrs May had successfully brought Leavers and Remainers together.

    She had explained in the speech, he said, how there would be "pragmatic alignment of our regulations" that would be of the same high standards as in European countries, but on a voluntary basis.

    Parliament would have the final say and the UK could always choose to have less market access.

    He said he was certain the negotiations would "go to the wire".

    'Time is short'
    Speaking on BBC's Newsnight the vice-president of the European Parliament, the Irish MEP Mairead McGuinness, said the speech showed the realities of Brexit "were dawning" in the UK.

    She said some of Mrs May's proposals amounted to the UK wanting "to be part of the European Union" Not time to nitpick on Brexit - Rees-Mogg in all but name.

    Irish prime minister Leo Varadkar said he feared the constraints of leaving the customs union and the single market have not been fully recognised by Mrs May's government.

    "Brexit is due to happen in a little over 12 months, so time is short," he said.
    In her speech, Mrs May said she was confident remaining differences over a draft EU legal agreement could be resolved, allowing trade talks to get under way.

    She said life would be different for the UK outside the EU's single market: "In certain ways, our access to each other's markets will be less than it is now."

    The UK could not expect to "enjoy all the benefits without all of the obligations" of membership.

    Another "hard fact" would be the UK would still continue to be affected by EU law and some decisions of the European Court of Justice - such as the ECJ rules on whether EU agreements are legal.

    However, she stressed the "jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice in the UK must end".

    The UK may choose to remain "in step" with EU regulations in areas like state aid and competition, in order to get "good access" to markets, she said.

    The hard fact for the EU was that the UK would want its own bespoke trade deal, not an "off-the-shelf model".

    BBC political correspondent Alex Forsyth said "the real test will be whether this speech was enough to convince critics that Mrs May's ambition for Brexit is credible and achievable without alienating her own MPs".

  9. #939
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    Leavers will have concerns with Mrs May, but now is not the time to nitpick
    JACOB REES-MOGG

    This was a good speech by the Prime Minister. She was forthright that she is delivering on the promises of the previous speeches and the manifesto commitments: this Government will take Britain out of the customs union, the single market and the European Court of Justice.

    Mrs May is taking a sensible, pragmatic and generous approach; offering something to the EU whilst also being extremely clear on Northern Ireland, so I am content.

    There are inevitably a few small points that will concern Leave campaigners but we must all recognise that everyone will have to give up something to get a deal, so now is not the time to nitpick.

    I do not agree with those people who have said that paying for associate membership of EU bodies such as the European Medicines Agency amounts to a betrayal of Brexit.

    Consider, for example, the European Aviation Safety Agency. Our own Civil Aviation Authority takes a leading role in providing the experts for that body, so in paying for associate membership of it we would, in effect, be paying our own people. Importantly the sums involved will be tiny in comparison to what we have paid for EU membership - millions, not billions.


    Also, such decisions will be subject to British laws and courts. Likewise 'binding commitments' will be on the basis of normal international treaty law and not subject to the ECJ.


    So it has been a good week for the Prime Minister and a good day. She has shown that being strong and clear works. It is now for the Commission to respond with wisdom and not aggression

  10. #940
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    These talks are just going around in circles... we've visited these issues before and got nowhere. Its quite obvious what the options are: canada style FTA or single market and/or customs union. Alternatively, the UK can pay nothing and go to WTO rules.. surely this must be obvious to all parties by now?

  11. #941
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    Steve Bannon says EU's treatment of Britain over Brexit negotiations 'vicious and dismissive'
    The EU’s treatment of Britain in the Brexit negotiations has been “vicious and dismissive”, Steve Bannon, the former White House chief strategist, told The Telegraph.

    Mr Bannon is in Rome to observe the outcome of Italy’s closely fought election on Sunday, in which the anti-establishment, Eurosceptic Five Star Movement is expected to emerge as the most popular party.

    The fiercely anti-immigration League party, which has promised to expel half a million migrants if elected, is also expected to perform well
    Italy encapsulates the populist and nationalist revolt that produced Brexit and the victory of Donald Trump, Mr Bannon, the president’s former right-hand man, said.

    “Brussels has been vicious and dismissive (towards Britain). The contempt that Brussels has shown for the mandate of the working men and women of Great Britain, who want out, has been to me nothing short of shocking.

    “They haven’t accommodated anything, they have made everything as tough as possible. It’s not even been a negotiation. It’s been by fiat.”
    Mr Bannon predicted a hard Brexit as the outcome of the tortuous negotiations.

    “They are going to test the resolve of the British people. They are going to throw up every road block,” he said.
    Brexit, the victory of Donald Trump and the Italian election were all “inextricably linked” in a global populist revolt against the establishment, he claimed.

    If a majority of Italians vote for populist parties, they can expect a hostile reception from Brussels, said Mr Bannon, who was head of the Right-wing website Breitbart News and has been accused by Democrats of peddling white supremacist views.

    “I would say to the Italians, look at how Brussels has responded to the mandate the British people gave their government to get out (of the EU).

    “Eighteen months later, the British have very little to show as far as exit negotiations go.”
    Described by Time magazine as “the second most powerful man in the world” before he was ousted last August, Mr Bannon was the architect of Mr Trump’s election triumph, earning the nickname the Prince of Darkness.

    He left the White House after clashes with other members of Mr Trump’s inner circle.

    Following his departure, Mr Trump claimed that Mr Bannon "not only lost his job, he lost his mind”.

    A champion of populism and economic nationalism, he described the Italian election as “the most important thing happening politically in the world right now”.
    He said strong support for the Five Star Movement, which polls suggest will win around 28 per cent of the vote, and the League, on around 13 per cent, was attributable to Italians’ anger towards established parties.

    The “party of Davos”, by which he means the European political and economic elite, had shown “contempt” for Italy by leaving it to deal with the arrival of 600,000 migrants and refugees in the last four years.

    He pointed out that if the polls are correct, two-thirds of Italians will vote for parties with anti-immigrant or populist views, from Five Star and The League to Silvio Berlusconi’s Forza Italia, which has co-opted much of The League’s anti-migrant rhetoric in recent months.

    “That’s nothing short of remarkable. Italy is, more than anywhere else in the world right now, even more than Brexit, even more than the Trump revolution in the US, the cutting edge of the sovereignty movement, of people saying we’ve tried to play by the rules, we’ve voted in centre-Left governments and centre-Right governments, and none of that has worked.

    “So now people are looking at another alternative. What they want is power back to the people in a populist revolt.”
    A survey published on Friday by the Pew Research Centre, a think tank, found that 82 per cent of Italians distrust parliament and more than three-quarters said politicians do not care what ordinary people think.


    If populist parties perform well, there will be “hysteria” in Brussels, Mr Bannon said.

    “This is an existential threat to the EU because Italy was a founding member of the European project and there is no country in Europe that bought in more to the European project than Italy.”

    For Mr Bannon, the “ultimate dream” would be a coalition government made up of Five Star and The League, both of whom view Brussels with suspicion and both of whom want illegal migrants to be sent home.
    “They have different policy perspectives but you see where there may be a natural coalition eventually,” he said.

    “There could be some alignment of Five Star and The League because they are the most anti-establishment.

    “Italians put their faith in the institutions of Europe but those institutions drove the economic problem and the problem of migration.

    “What you see is an absolutely rational reaction to institutional failure. That is why this election is so important.”
    Asked if he thought Italy would be better off leaving the EU, he said: “That’s for the Italian people to decide. That’s not on the ballot in the election. But that discussion will take place.”

    The governing Democratic Party is clearly spooked by the threat posed by populist parties, with its leader, former prime minister Matteo Renzi, launching a last-minute appeal to voters not to veer towards “extremism”.
    He wants to an “army” of at least 10 million supporters and activists in the US “to spread the gospel of populism.”

    “What I’m trying to do is build a grass-roots army in the United States. Maybe over time it would go global.”

    After observing the election in Italy, he is due to give a speech on populism and economic nationalism in Switzerland on Tuesday.
    Last edited by Toby; 07 Mar 18, at 14:04.

  12. #942
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    These talks are just going around in circles... we've visited these issues before and got nowhere. Its quite obvious what the options are: canada style FTA or single market and/or customs union. Alternatively, the UK can pay nothing and go to WTO rules.. surely this must be obvious to all parties by now?
    Italy's radical new leaders denounce EU Brexit strategy as foolish dogma
    Italy election
    The Italian parliament in Rome is now a populist hotbed, and many have some sympathy for Brexit

    Leaders of Italy’s triumphant conservative alliance have called for a radical change in the EU’s negotiating stance over Brexit, describing threats to restrict trade and punish Britain as ideological idiocy.

    “Great Britain is a friendly country with a long tradition of trading with Italy,” said Matteo Salvini, leader of the Lega party and the man poised to become prime minister if the centre-Right coalition forms the next government.

    “You made a free choice with Brexit and I very much hope that it will be possible to maintain completely open trade with the EU without any penalties,”

    The party’s economics chief, Claudio Borghi, said a Lega-led coalition government with Silvio Berlusconi’s Forza Italia and the smaller Brothers of Italy would refuse to rubber stamp the current EU strategy on Brexit.

    “There will be no blind trust in what Germany wants. Punishment or anything of the kind would be sheer stupidity. We export more to the UK than we import back and we certainly don’t want to hurt our own client,” said Mr Borghi, an MP for Tuscany.

    There is confusion in Rome over which constellation of parties will take power after Sunday’s elections, which delivered a shattering defeat for the post-War political order. Radical populist movements of Left and Right swept the board, leaving a hung parliament caught in a feverish clash of cultural visions.
    The neo-anarchist Five Star movement is the biggest single party. It surged to 32.7pc of vote under the boyish millennial Luigi Di Maio, who vows to defend the rights of Italian citizens living in Britain vigorously but is otherwise open to a friendly accord over Brexit.
    We shouldn’t try to punish the British people for choosing Brexit,” he said, deeming it understandable that long-suffering people ignored for so long by the political class should erupt in protest. Five Star’s own stunning victory in Sicily and the South has been likened to the Brexit revolt in the North East of England.

    The Five Star founder, Beppe Grillo, is himself an emotional eurosceptic. He long denounced the eurozone as a German bankers’ ramp and a threat to democracy, at one point teaming up with UKIP in the European Parliament. He applauded Brexit as a salutary slap in the face for an arrogant elite. “Mediterranean countries, and Italy first among them, should take the same line towards the EU,” he said.

    The party has since toned down its eurosceptic language. It has shelved calls for a euro referendum, though this is still held in reserve as a negotiating tool. Clearly, Five Star is not going to spend political capital defending a Tory Brexit, but nor is it remotely aligned with the power structure of the EU project.

    We can understand why Britain wanted to escape. It makes no sense for the EU to adopt a policy of revenge
    It is unclear in any case whether Five Star can break bread with the defeated rump of the ruling Democrat party (PD) after so much bad blood in the past and form a government. The PD’s outgoing leader Matteo Renzo said it would be a “calamitous and tragic error” for his party to join forces with such a movement. “They are extremists and anti-Europeans, and they have been insulting us for years,” he said.
    In the end, Five Star could conceivably forge an unholy alliance with the Lega-led Right, a grand coalition united only by their desire to overthrow the eurozone’s fiscal regime, and to repudiate EU banking and state aid doctrines.

    Mr Borghi said they might even find common ground on a parallel currency that slowly breaks the lockhold of the European Central Bank, and a constitutional clause establishing the primacy of Italian law to break the lockhold of the European Court. Such a government would be in permanent conflict with Brussels and Berlin.

    Professor Alberto Bagnai, a Lega senator for the Abbruzzi, said Berlin can no longer take Italy for granted as a pliable follower over Europe. “The EU is becoming more and more of a German empire. We are seeing German bureaucrats taking over the key positions in the EU institutions. We can understand why Britain wanted to escape from this prison,” he said.

    “We call our movement the ‘Common Sense Revolution’ and it makes no sense at all for the EU to adopt a policy of revenge over Brexit,” he said.

    “We are already paying a high enough price for sanctions against Russia, which the Germans don’t actually apply themselves despite imposing the policy on us. It is the usual double standard and we are getting rather sick of it,” he said
    The defiant tone reflects a widespread feeling in Italy that Berlin has "gamed" the structure of monetary union in its own interests. Germany bailed out its own banks during the Great Recession but then changed the rules, forcing a draconian "bail-in" regime on Italy. Italian banks had been relatively well-behaved but the were casualties of the long economic slump. The bail-in shock shattered fragile confidence and delayed recovery yet again.
    Germany retained dominant control of the policy machinery during the eurozone debt crisis, dictating a regime of extreme fiscal austerity for Italy that went beyond the therapeutic dose and pushed the country into a contractionary spiral. The fiscal straightjacket was criticised by Nobel economists around the world as economic illiteracy.

    “We had a government imposed upon us in 2011 (by the EU) that extracted as much money as it could from Italian citizens to contribute to EU bail-out funds. They were using our money to rescue French and German banks. This austerity caused great social injustice and did a lot of damage,” he said.

    Having endured this ordeal, Italians are now the most eurosceptic nation in Europe – more than the British by some measures – and many recognize an all-too familiar modus operandi in the Brexit saga as Berlin seeks to retain iron control over the EU policy apparatus.

    Italians have their own parallel struggle with the EU in any case. “What worries me as an Italian is that we are stuck in a currency union that is run by irrational people who don’t understand markets and are acting out of pure ideology. They are very dangerous,” said Senator Bagnai
    Last edited by Toby; 07 Mar 18, at 14:19.

  13. #943
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    In what sense is the UK being punished? Its being offered 3rd country status and asked to pay its bills?

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    The President has spoken:
    http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/pr...p-with-the-uk/

    And, in this spirit, I propose close cooperation within the following areas.

    Firstly, as we are confronted with similar security threats, I propose that the EU and the UK continue our common fight against terrorism and international crime. The increasing global instability requires our uninterrupted cooperation in defence and foreign affairs. It is about the security of our citizens, which must be preserved beyond Brexit.

    Secondly, we invite the UK to participate in EU programmes in the fields of research and innovation, as well as in education and culture. This is key to maintain mutually beneficial and enriching personal networks in these vital areas, and for our community of values to prosper also in future.

    Thirdly, I am determined to avoid that particularly absurd consequence of Brexit that is the disruption of flights between the UK and the EU. To do so, we must start discussions on this issue as soon as possible.

    Now, coming to the core of our future economic relationship. During my talks in London last Thursday, and in her speech last Friday, Prime Minister Theresa May confirmed that the UK will leave the Single Market, leave the customs union and leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ (European Court of Justice). Therefore, it should come as no surprise that the only remaining possible model is a free trade agreement. I hope that it will be ambitious and advanced – and we will do our best, as we did with other partners, such as Canada recently – but anyway it will only be a trade agreement.

    I propose that we aim for a trade agreement covering all sectors and with zero tariffs on goods. Like other free trade agreements, it should address services. And in fisheries, reciprocal access to fishing waters and resources should be maintained.

    This positive approach doesn't change the simple fact that because of Brexit we will be drifting apart. In fact, this will be the first FTA in history that loosens economic ties, instead of strengthening them. Our agreement will not make trade between the UK and the EU frictionless or smoother. It will make it more complicated and costly than today, for all of us. This is the essence of Brexit.

    [...]

    The EU cannot agree to grant the UK the rights of Norway with the obligations of Canada; [...] No Member State is free to pick only those sectors of the Single Market it likes, nor to accept the role of the ECJ only when it suits their interest. By the same token, a pick-and-mix approach for a non-member state is out of the question. We are not going to sacrifice these principles. It's simply not in our interest.
    It may also be notable that he closes this speech by referring to the impending trade war with the US and saying that the objective is always to protect Europeans against trade turbulence.

  15. #945
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Italy's radical new leaders denounce EU Brexit strategy as foolish dogma
    Where's that from, Zerohedge or something comparable? I mean, they are quoting a Lega representative and effectively run with his opinion for the piece. Do they even know what Italians think about Lega? One date for a hint: 1922.

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