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Thread: The battle of Brexit!

  1. #886
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    If I may put another point of view - not mine but Prof Tim Snyder's (a Harvard Historian)... His thesis - which I do not altogether agree with - is that Britain (or England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland), France, Spain, Portugal, Holland etc have never before been "nation states". They have always been partly colonial looking or Anglo - Scottish, Belgium - Holland or whatever or they have been Imperial powers - and it was not only the British Empire of course. Perhaps the only English attempt at being a 'nation state' was Cromwell. Snyder suggests that the EU is a way out of this - and the thwarted German attempts at Empire. By combining everyone has a 'European Empire' and so again loses the difficulties of asking what a 'nation state' means.

    Like I say I do not altogether agree with his thesis - nor understand it that well to be honest - but thought it may be interesting to you. For myself I am pro Piłsudski rather than Dmowski which means in British terms open to neighbours rather than being everyone has to be C of E, white and English.

  2. #887
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosspoons View Post
    Then languish as a step-child to the EU. Doesn't bother me one bit. If you consider 1.5% growth acceptable, then you are clearly on the right path.
    The growth rate is meagre because we are leaving the EU. The rest of europe is growing rather strongly.
    Theres a government report just released that shows US trade deal would add 0.2% to UK growth over 15 years. Everyones getting excited about FTAs in the light of brexit, but the noring truth is they dont do all that much. Single markets do.

    Ps im irish and we grew at 3.4 per cent in 2017.
    Last edited by zara; 03 Feb 18, at 13:29.

  3. #888
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    If I may put another point of view - not mine but Prof Tim Snyder's (a Harvard Historian)... His thesis - which I do not altogether agree with - is that Britain (or England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland), France, Spain, Portugal, Holland etc have never before been "nation states". They have always been partly colonial looking or Anglo - Scottish, Belgium - Holland or whatever or they have been Imperial powers - and it was not only the British Empire of course. Perhaps the only English attempt at being a 'nation state' was Cromwell. Snyder suggests that the EU is a way out of this - and the thwarted German attempts at Empire. By combining everyone has a 'European Empire' and so again loses the difficulties of asking what a 'nation state' means.

    Like I say I do not altogether agree with his thesis - nor understand it that well to be honest - but thought it may be interesting to you. For myself I am pro Piłsudski rather than Dmowski which means in British terms open to neighbours rather than being everyone has to be C of E, white and English.
    The aims of the EU are known to the UK. NO control of our borders, no control over our laws etc etc ..and a fully integrated European super state that couldn't careless for its peoples just as long as it gets to be one political/ federal entity .Which is why we voted out.
    Last edited by Toby; 03 Feb 18, at 17:26.

  4. #889
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    Can you clarify on what you mean by an 'academic'?
    academic
    akəˈdɛmɪk/Submit
    adjective
    1.
    relating to education and scholarship.
    "academic achievement"
    synonyms: educational, scholastic, instructional, pedagogical; More
    2.
    not of practical relevance; of only theoretical interest.
    "the debate has been largely academic"
    synonyms: theoretical, conceptual, notional, philosophical, unpragmatic, hypothetical, speculative, conjectural, conjectured, suppositional, putative; More
    noun
    1.
    a teacher or scholar in a university or other institute of higher education.
    "the EU offers grants to academics for research on approved projects"
    synonyms: scholar, lecturer, don, teacher, educator, instructor, trainer, tutor, professor, fellow, man/woman of letters, highbrow, thinker, bluestocking; More

    Do you understand that in order to to introduce direct democracy in the EU, it would have to federalize? If you give the commission a direct democratic mandate that absolutely neuters the power of the European Council? The British Commissioner would become as powerful, if not more powerful than the British PM. The British PM has to be able to choose and fire the British commissioner. As someone who proclaims to care about national soveirgenty, surely thats the last thing you want?
    A fair Trade deal. Thats all I want from Europe

    big ideas and big gunboats. It was easy to manufacture everything here when China was a sado-masocistic Communist swamp.
    Times have changed, and we need to change too.
    We are doing, but as long as the banks fail to invest sensibly into Industry over longer periods..it won't happen to the extent of Germany or Japan.

    I know your disgust at the EU comes from a good place and you want to see better things for the average Brit, I just think its mis-directed rage. Brexit hurts us all.
    Its not rage and its not miss-directed

  5. #890
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    God! So pedantic!
    I know what academic means, your just using it wrong!

  6. #891
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    God! So pedantic!
    You asked a question, I answered it.
    I know what academic means, your just using it wrong!
    Of course not. I'm not qualified to use the English language either as I'm not an academic

  7. #892
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    A fair Trade deal. Thats all I want from Europe
    What are you willing to pay for it? And by "what" i mean how many percent of your GDP. Preferably with the haggling starting somewhere above "one".

  8. #893
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    What are you willing to pay for it? And by "what" i mean how many percent of your GDP. Preferably with the haggling starting somewhere above "one".
    The problem with brexiteers is that they think 'a fair trade deal' is near enough current access to europes markets with none of the responsibilities. They dont get that a fair trade deal will be lopsided to favour the EU as access to an economy the size of the EU 27 is many times more valuable a prize than access to the UK.

    Theyve been promised cake and eat it by the Brexitollahs and now they cant understand why Europe wont give it to them.

  9. #894
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    access to an economy the size of the EU 27 is many times more valuable a prize than access to the UK.
    That's not really a problem in negotiations for that between the UK and the EU - though it is a (major) issue in the not-quite-negotiations with other countries which the UK is only now discovering.

    Between the UK and the EU it's not that simple. In such a deal on top of that punishment must be taken into account in particular. They've had the carrot cake, so now they're gonna face the stick.

  10. #895
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    The aims of the EU are known to the UK. NO control of our borders, no control over our laws etc etc ..and a fully integrated European super state that couldn't careless for its peoples just as long as it gets to be one political/ federal entity .Which is why we voted out.
    Not sure your slogans are anything to do with Snyder's theory.

  11. #896
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Between the UK and the EU it's not that simple. In such a deal on top of that punishment must be taken into account in particular. They've had the carrot cake, so now they're gonna face the stick.
    Exactly the sort of attitude that is detrimental to Europe as a whole. Why should someone be "punished" because they want out? They joined freely, why should they be 'punished' for freely leaving? What good does punishing anyone actually do for a greater European future? You seem not to understand what European cooperation for the common good should be as much as these little Englanders who are leading themselves into a slave wage (zero hours contracts I believe they call them), low tax, offshore money laundering center for billionaires. I reject you and them. Sanity must prevail for the good of all.
    Last edited by snapper; 07 Feb 18, at 00:55.

  12. #897
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    The Carrot and Stick is also applied before a trade deal:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...riod-sanctions
    [...] Brussels will have the power to punish the UK at will during the Brexit transition period by closing off parts of the single market to British companies, according to a leaked legal document drawn up by the EU. [...]
    Well, mostly the stick.

    As for the why... let's remember who has been undermining the EU for the last 45 years. And who insisted that the option to leave is available at all.

  13. #898
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    Snappers right, theres no need for punishment, the EU is better than that. The little Englanders will punish themselves, the EU should simply enforce the treaties and back Ireland, thats all we need to do. The next generation will return the UK to the european family, so lets just keep the seat warm.

  14. #899
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    What are you willing to pay for it? And by "what" i mean how many percent of your GDP. Preferably with the haggling starting somewhere above "one".
    I take it you mean our GDP will decrease because we're not apart of the EU?Initially it may do but long term it will increase. Clearly the EU are worried by this which is why the negotiations are going nowhere at the moment. The EU don't want us to leave the block because it will cause major problems not only in funding but the thought of having a massive economic power on their doorstep that they have little influence over really unnerves them.

  15. #900
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    A 'massive economic power'? Brexit britain LOL!

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