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Thread: The battle of Brexit!

  1. #76
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    When is the next Catalan referendum? Asking for a friend.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  2. #77
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    Depends on who you ask - if you ask Barcelona around September, if you ask Madrid never.

  3. #78
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    Police escort passengers off easyJet plane after 'heated' row over Gibraltar

    Police escorted two ‘disruptive’ passengers from an easyJet plane following a heated argument over Gibraltar’s post-Brexit future.

    The row broke out between Gibraltarian and Spanish passengers on the plane and they were met by police upon landing at Gatwick Airport yesterday, it is claimed.

    An eyewitness on the flight from Gibraltar told The Sun it was a “really heated argument” over the current situation in Gibraltar.



    “The cabin crew were keeping them apart and trying to stop [them] from getting at each other,” the man, speaking anonymously, told the newspaper.

    “It was unnerving and things only calmed down as we got ready to land at Gatwick, but even when we arrived police came onto the plane.”

    The passenger added he didn’t hear the group of Spanish passengers answer back after an outburst from a woman living in Gibraltar.

    A spokesperson for Sussex Police said: “Police were informed at 12:55pm on Tuesday of disruptive passengers onboard an EasyJet flight from Gibraltar.

    “Officers boarded when the plane landed at Gatwick ay 1.30pm. Two people were taken from the flight and given words of advice about their behaviour.”



    EasyJet added “the flight was met by police on arrival due to two passengers behaving disruptively”.

    “EasyJet’s cabin crew are trained to assess and evaluate all situations and to act quickly and appropriately to ensure the safety of the flight,” the airline said.

    The row comes after Spain was accused of using Brexit to make a “land grab” for Gibraltar under official guidelines for negotiations drawn up by the EU.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...row-gibraltar/

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Why? That'd only be destabilizing on us. And well, now the gloves are off. We've had nine months to prepare.

    The European Parliament will pass this resolution next wednesday with an overwhelming majority. This press release is a bit more legible as to its contents - basically, no withdrawal agreement will be passed until the UK acknowledges that it'll pay up. Among other demands - such as no signing any trade pacts before leaving. And that withdrawal agreement has to be drafted and made ready for passing "well ahead" of the May 2019 EP election, meaning not during that year. Otherwise full fall-back to third-nation status on March 30th 2019 plus sanctions.
    It doesn't have to be destablising for the EU. We accept it can't be as good a deal as as being inside the EU, but perhaps it could be as good as the Canadian deal?
    It's clearly going to hurt the UK a great deal, no matter what the fantasists say. We've made our bed, let us lie in it, but don't make it any worse. Like I said young of the UK, (as well as its major cities, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Gibraltar) overwhelmingly want the UK to remain in the EU. Keep them onside and this terrible decision can be overturned.

    Sanctions? What for?

  5. #80
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Depends on who you ask - if you ask Barcelona around September, if you ask Madrid never.
    London and Gibraltar vote the same like Madrid.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    How does it's location make it British?
    Because Hercules decreed it!

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    I don't think the Spanish are really expecting much to change with respect to Gibraltar over this, it's probably aimed at something else, like getting the British to pay towards the medical care of the 300,000 odd British migrants living there (assuming they are allowed to stay). Spain also have influence with their veto over Scottish entry back into the EU, which they suggested they may not wield after all. We may find the EU will be less relaxed about Gibralator as a tax haven once we have left.

    I think we are going these kind of disputes much more difficult in future now that the default position of the entire European Continent will be to side with the non-British party..
    Why would Spain pay for Brits that have health cover, Spain if you didn't know is on life support like all the other Mediterranean in denial spheres, its banqrupt, junk status without us... in lala land!.. away with the fairies, just like all the other left wing no nothings that think money grows on trees. Do you and Snapper work for the EU Zara?..it would explain alot!

  8. #83
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    I must say - while I do understand where people are coming from with regards to Brexit and all these other -exits that are proposed, I think the blame has been misplaced.

    I don't think that the economic, and thus resulting social problems, that are leading to dissatisfaction with the EU are directly being caused by EU/Brussels policies. I fundamentally view them as a symptom of de-industrialization, growing economies of scale in major metropolitan areas, and dis-economies of scale occurring in areas distant from and on the margins of these metropolitan areas.

    It is true, people are being left behind, and that jobs, job security, and the hope of a middle-class income are being lost on a wide and massive scale. These things are indeed occurring, they are a reality. The family structure itself in many areas marginal to the metropolises is breaking down. I have seen the terrible impact this has had on people's lives, in the rural/lightly urbanized industrial region I was born in. I have family there, and what they and others are are going through is fundamentally the result of the same thing that has caused dissatisfaction among large segments of the populations in many Western democracies. It is the same story, just a different country.

    The problem isn't due to a specific policy or set of policies that come out of London or Brussels - it is a worldwide phenomenon that is occurring in virtually every nation. I think that with these various -exits - those who are advocating them are blaming and shooting at the wrong target. People always want somebody to blame - but there are certain circumstances, that are outside the control of even the politicians and institutions that are being blamed. Even they cannot prevent this sea change or hold it back. All they can do is try to adapt to it, mitigate the worst effects, and explore the possibilities of new economic models and infrastructure, to try to re-vitalize these areas on the margins, not with what was the status quo economic structure in the past, but with a new and better one.

    The past may look rosy and sweet in retrospect - but that past is gone. Creating a new and better future, rather than holding out for reverting to something that is gone forever, would be a better path. Most jobs in the West have been lost to automation and increased efficiency - not sending them overseas, but even the jobs that have gone to China and other non-First World countries - they are a temporary phenomenon there, and in just a decade or two, there will be hundreds of millions more left behind in these nations, just as many tens of millions have been in the Western democracies. It is better to adapt on a macro-scale and be ahead of the curve, rather than trying to get jobs "back" that are going to be gone anyways, in not too long, in the nations that they have gone.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 07 Apr 17, at 13:15.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Why would Spain pay for Brits that have health cover, Spain if you didn't know is on life support like all the other Mediterranean in denial spheres, its banqrupt, junk status without us... in lala land!.. away with the fairies, just like all the other left wing no nothings that think money grows on trees. Do you and Snapper work for the EU Zara?..it would explain alot!
    Because many of them are Pensioners and currently under the EU rules, the NHS pays for their heathcare. This may or may not continue after Brexit and this is one of the things that Spain wants from a potential deal. Perhaps they think by not vetoeing a deal that includes Gibraltar, the UK will agree to continue these payments. Or perhaps it's an attempt to get Gibraltar to raise their corporation tax.

    'All the other Mediterranean states bankrupt, junk status'?


    Spains Moodies rating is Baa2 which is lower Medium Grade, which is considered non-speculative and investment grade. Far from junk.


    No I don't work for the EU. I guess only explanation is that I must be one of those brainwashed children you were talking about
    Last edited by zara; 07 Apr 17, at 13:37.

  10. #85
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    Say what you want, but British female PMs have more cojones than their male counterparts.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    This may or may not continue after Brexit and this is one of the things that Spain wants from a potential deal. Perhaps they think by not vetoeing a deal that includes Gibraltar, the UK will agree to continue these payments.
    Actually, that's what the "we have to settle matters with regard to the status of Europeans in the UK and Britons in Europe" is about.

    Mentioning a Spanish veto with regard to Gibraltar in particular is a purely political move that establishes Spanish interests and that the EU would go as far as supporting them. Even without that paragraph every single EU member state (read: Spain) can veto any settlement with Britain anyway over whatever reasons they want since unanimity is required.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    Because many of them are Pensioners and currently under the EU rules, the NHS pays for their heathcare. This may or may not continue after Brexit and this is one of the things that Spain wants from a potential deal. Perhaps they think by not vetoeing a deal that includes Gibraltar, the UK will agree to continue these payments. Or perhaps it's an attempt to get Gibraltar to raise their corporation tax.

    'All the other Mediterranean states bankrupt, junk status'?


    Spains Moodies rating is Baa2 which is lower Medium Grade, which is considered non-speculative and investment grade. Far from junk.


    No I don't work for the EU. I guess only explanation is that I must be one of those brainwashed children you were talking about
    The Spanish Government are hypocrites that think its ok for them to hold on to Ceuta while lambasting us for holding onto Gibraltar.

    Baa2, Whats that a grade 2 sheep listling?

    Spain is propped up by tourism and subsidies from us and all the other industrious northern European nations on the map I posted....It receives a massive handout from us amongst others!

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    I must say - while I do understand where people are coming from with regards to Brexit and all these other -exits that are proposed, I think the blame has been misplaced.

    I don't think that the economic, and thus resulting social problems, that are leading to dissatisfaction with the EU are directly being caused by EU/Brussels policies. I fundamentally view them as a symptom of de-industrialization, growing economies of scale in major metropolitan areas, and dis-economies of scale occurring in areas distant from and on the margins of these metropolitan areas.

    It is true, people are being left behind, and that jobs, job security, and the hope of a middle-class income are being lost on a wide and massive scale. These things are indeed occurring, they are a reality. The family structure itself in many areas marginal to the metropolises is breaking down. I have seen the terrible impact this has had on people's lives, in the rural/lightly urbanized industrial region I was born in. I have family there, and what they and others are are going through is fundamentally the result of the same thing that has caused dissatisfaction among large segments of the populations in many Western democracies. It is the same story, just a different country.

    The problem isn't due to a specific policy or set of policies that come out of London or Brussels - it is a worldwide phenomenon that is occurring in virtually every nation. I think that with these various -exits - those who are advocating them are blaming and shooting at the wrong target. People always want somebody to blame - but there are certain circumstances, that are outside the control of even the politicians and institutions that are being blamed. Even they cannot prevent this sea change or hold it back. All they can do is try to adapt to it, mitigate the worst effects, and explore the possibilities of new economic models and infrastructure, to try to re-vitalize these areas on the margins, not with what was the status quo economic structure in the past, but with a new and better one.

    The past may look rosy and sweet in retrospect - but that past is gone. Creating a new and better future, rather than holding out for reverting to something that is gone forever, would be a better path. Most jobs in the West have been lost to automation and increased efficiency - not sending them overseas, but even the jobs that have gone to China and other non-First World countries - they are a temporary phenomenon there, and in just a decade or two, there will be hundreds of millions more left behind in these nations, just as many tens of millions have been in the Western democracies. It is better to adapt on a macro-scale and be ahead of the curve, rather than trying to get jobs "back" that are going to be gone anyways, in not too long, in the nations that they have gone.
    Where do you live?

  14. #89
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Minneapolis, but I'm originally from the iron/taconite mining areas - the high-grade iron ore supplied 80% of US iron ore needs during WWII, and since then the region has been scraping by on low-grade taconite - which worked for a few decades, but now the local economy is subject to vicious cyclical trends in the iron commodities market - when the prices go up, the plants re-open, when the price of iron goes down - everyone is laid off and secondary and tertiary jobs are lost as well.

    My profile says Arlington, VA - that was six years ago. I'll update it now.

    The region I'm from supplied raw taconite/iron, shipped to a Great Lakes port city, much of which ended up in Pennsylvania/Ohio steel mills. Part of the greater Great Lakes industrial economy of coal, iron, and steel. The structure of the industrial economy was mainly as follows:

    • Northern Minnesota/Upper Michigan: iron/taconite
    • Appalachia: coal
    • Buffalo/Pittsburgh/West Pennsylvania/Cleveland areas: steel
    • Detroit area: cars

    All have suffered badly. Those days are mostly gone, just as the Cornish tin trade (brass/bronze) centuries before was, as well as the northern England coal/steel trade in decades past is. It is the same exact macro-economic trend playing out - the country is the only thing that is different.

    These trends that are causing so much economic and societal strife in England, which are also occurring in the US - they are only on a time delay from being lost in the countries that have supposedly been moved to. They'll be lost in South Korea, China, India, etc. - these jobs are only on temporary loan until automation and the services economy establish themselves in these economies.

    The even bigger picture is - steel, coal, oil are merely stopgap technologies. All will be rendered, for the overwhelming part, obsolete. They provided solid work, a middle class income, and bread for over 200 years - but they are being replaced and will rendered largely obsolete in just a few decades time - there's no sense in hitching one's wagon to a star that will burn, crash, and die in our 21st century.

    I believe that steel, coal, and oil and the technologies that are based upon them - are extremely economically inefficient in the long-term, and create enormous negative externalities in terms of pollution, impact on human health, and environmental devastation. There are other, superior technologies that are emerging - they are as of yet in the bleeding/leading-edge phase, but I firmly believe that steel, coal, and oil are a losing bet.

    200 years is the length of several human lifetimes - and it may seem like an eternity to all of us whom are alive today, and it likewise seems that steel, coal, and oil are eternal necessities and there is going to be a continuing need for them that is immutable - I don't believe this is true. 200 years is merely a couple ticks of the second hand of the clock in all of the history of human existence that has played out, and is yet to play out.

    Rather than demanding these jobs come back - it is a better course of action in my opinion to hold the politicians in London and Brussels accountable for failing to mitigate the worst effects of these macro-economic trends, and for failing to provide the resources to re-educate and re-skill those who have been left behind.

    We had our very own Brexit in the US - the election of Trump. Many in my own family and people they know in the region I'm from voted him into office. They were responding to the identical economic problems, and the resulting societal problems that caused Brexit.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 08 Apr 17, at 03:17.

  15. #90
    Senior Contributor Amled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    Minneapolis, but originally from the iron/taconite areas. My profile says Arlington, VA - that was six years ago. I'll update it now.

    The region I'm from supplied raw taconite/iron, shipped to a Great Lakes port city, much of which ended up in Pennsylvania/Ohio steel mills. Part of the greater Great Lakes industrial economy of coal, iron, and steel. The structure of the industrial economy was mainly as follows:

    • Northern MN/Upper Michigan: iron/taconite
    • Appalachia: coal
    • Buffalo/Pittsburgh/West Pennsylvania/Cleveland areas: steel
    • Detroit: cars

    All have suffered badly. Those days are mostly gone, just as the Cornish tin trade (brass/bronze) centuries before was, as well as the northern England coal/steel trade in decades past is. It is the same exact macro-economic trend playing out - the country is the only thing that is different.

    These trends that are causing so much economic and societal strife in England, which are also occurring in the US - they are only on a time delay from being lost in the countries that have supposedly been moved to. They'll be lost in South Korea, China, India, etc. - these jobs are only on temporary loan until automation and the services economy establish themselves in these economies.

    The even bigger picture is - steel, coal, oil are merely stopgap technologies. All will be rendered, for the overwhelming part, obsolete. They provided solid work, a middle class income, and bread for over 200 years - but they are being replaced and will rendered largely obsolete in just a few decades time - there's no sense in hitching one's wagon to a star that will burn, crash, and die in our 21st century.

    200 years is the length of several human lifetimes - and it may seem like an eternity to all of us whom are alive today, and it likewise seems that steel, coal, and oil are eternal necessities and the need for them is immutable - this is not true. 200 years is merely a couple ticks of the second hand of the clock in all of the history of human existence that has played out, and is yet to play out.
    On a recent visit to Cleveland, I was amazed at the change for the better that city has seen.
    When last there in the ‘80s and ‘90’s it was still a grimy and polluted industrial town, and the less said about the river the better.
    Now a renovated waterfront, cleaned up the river and according to my nephew the jobs are coming back.
    So maybe it is cyclic.
    When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

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