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Thread: The battle of Brexit!

  1. #736
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    The Russian Bogey man ..REALLY!! I call it desperation!

  2. #737
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    My friend it does not surprise me at all. I was briefly a UKIP member and onetime had the temerity to ask if they got any money from Moscow. "Dunno" etc was the usual reply so I asked "who would know?" and wrote to them (I won't name names here). Not telling was basically the answers I got back so I told them what I thought of that, tore up my membership card and shortly after had to go abroad. Wouldn't surprise if they tried to help the Scottish independence do as well. The Catalans apparently had contact with Julian Assange.

  3. #738
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    My friend it does not surprise me at all. I was briefly a UKIP member and onetime had the temerity to ask if they got any money from Moscow. "Dunno" etc was the usual reply so I asked "who would know?" and wrote to them (I won't name names here). Not telling was basically the answers I got back so I told them what I thought of that, tore up my membership card and shortly after had to go abroad. Wouldn't surprise if they tried to help the Scottish independence do as well. The Catalans apparently had contact with Julian Assange.
    That's not the point I was making.....All I've heard for the last 30 years is "European wankers in Brussels..how dare those F-ckers tell us how to do things" its not a Russian conspiracy its A British sense of nation hood..Call it what you like but don't insult my intelligence by blaming the Russians that's Moronic!

  4. #739
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    I do not consider it an insult to anyone's intelligence to entertain the possibility that they tried given what we know of their operations elsewhere. I call that a due diligence inquiry.

  5. #740
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I do not consider it an insult to anyone's intelligence to entertain the possibility that they tried given what we know of their operations elsewhere. I call that a due diligence inquiry.
    There has been an under current of bad feeling aimed at the EU for as long as I can remember. Its very possible that the Russians have funded various quarters. I would imagine we do similar elsewhere along with the US and others. Another inquiry at our expense that will do what? ...prove what we already know. like the Iraq inquiry that took years at massive expense and resulted in a cover up....hmmmm!
    Last edited by Toby; 05 Nov 17, at 19:53.

  6. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    There has been an under current of bad feeling aimed at the EU for as long as I can remember. Its very possible that the Russians have funded various quarters.
    So you are saying "So what?" and that's it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I would imagine we do similar elsewhere along with the US and others.
    Well actually no we don't hack political parties and release info about their campaign or promulgate false propaganda such as "The Pope supports Trump" or "Brexit means another 350m GDP for the NHS every week". But good try at "whataboutism"... wonder you got that tactic from? There is no moral equivalence here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Another inquiry at our expense that will do what? ...prove what we already know. like the Iraq inquiry that took years at massive expense and resulted in a cover up....hmmmm!
    Perhaps not as expensive as the 62bn GDP the UK has apparently agreed to pay the EU as a 'leaving fee'.

    Most of all I reject this "So whatism". A Government has duties and responsibilities, the first being the defence of the realm (in the British case), the territorial integrity of the country, the defence of it's laws and peoples. In the UK obviously this is the duty of monarch which she delegates to her Ministers for the most part. Right so if this referendum has in any way been interfered in by a foreign power then the Government has a duty to investigate this infringement of the laws and customs. This is also wise because if you have once been attacked in this manner and do not investigate how it was done then you are open to the same unwarranted intrusion again. I suppose Moscow might fancy Comrade Corbyn dropping the nuclear deterrent, splitting Scotland off etc... It is important for your national security in the longer term.

    Secondly as a Government or a civil servant you serve ALL the people, not just those who voted for the last party that was elected nor the 52% who voted for Brexit - of whom some 25% now believe they were duped (https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...ampaign/21/08/). You have a duty to them to see if the vote was interferred with in any way. Government is not a 'dictatorship of the majority' but about serving ALL the people regardless of how they voted or what Church they chose to attend etc...

  7. #742
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    So you are saying "So what?" and that's it?



    Well actually no we don't hack political parties and release info about their campaign or promulgate false propaganda such as "The Pope supports Trump" or "Brexit means another 350m GDP for the NHS every week". But good try at "whataboutism"... wonder you got that tactic from? There is no moral equivalence here.



    Perhaps not as expensive as the 62bn GDP the UK has apparently agreed to pay the EU as a 'leaving fee'.

    Most of all I reject this "So whatism". A Government has duties and responsibilities, the first being the defence of the realm (in the British case), the territorial integrity of the country, the defence of it's laws and peoples. In the UK obviously this is the duty of monarch which she delegates to her Ministers for the most part. Right so if this referendum has in any way been interfered in by a foreign power then the Government has a duty to investigate this infringement of the laws and customs. This is also wise because if you have once been attacked in this manner and do not investigate how it was done then you are open to the same unwarranted intrusion again. I suppose Moscow might fancy Comrade Corbyn dropping the nuclear deterrent, splitting Scotland off etc... It is important for your national security in the longer term.

    Secondly as a Government or a civil servant you serve ALL the people, not just those who voted for the last party that was elected nor the 52% who voted for Brexit - of whom some 25% now believe they were duped (https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...ampaign/21/08/). You have a duty to them to see if the vote was interferred with in any way. Government is not a 'dictatorship of the majority' but about serving ALL the people regardless of how they voted or what Church they chose to attend etc...
    Am just bored with the depth of distraction and complete crap that's being released......criminality is just that, bit like 2008....still nobody caught or maybe Iraq 2003 still nobody caught .....should I go on???? seen it been there got the t shirt ..in fact isn't this a re-run ...lol

  8. #743
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    I doubt many English separatists will care if Russia was behind it any more than trumpists care about the intereference in their elections. If
    If evidence emerges though it will strengthen the hand of those MPs trying to reverse the poll.

  9. #744
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    I doubt many English separatists will care if Russia was behind it any more than trumpists care about the intereference in their elections
    Its says British on my Passport !...and I'm not a separatist I'm a patriot...least that's what they're called in America. In fact historically speaking if you want to get the terminology correct, People who favour a foreign power over their own are termed as 'Traitors'

    If evidence emerges though it will strengthen the hand of those MPs trying to reverse the poll.
    I suppose if the media say it enough times it will be come 'Truth'.....and the sheep will sound a rousing 'BAA'
    Last edited by Toby; 08 Nov 17, at 09:40.

  10. #745
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    'I'm a patriot' Yep that's what separatists always say.
    I guess the Republic of Texas organisation must be patriots too.

    So I suppose Scottish and Welsh unionists are all traitors then for supporting a foreign power?

    'Truth' - like the bendy bananas and Johnsons other lies? Funny someone who has wholly swallowed the euro-phobic murdoch drivel from the gutter press for decades gets to call those who worry about Russian influence 'sheep'.
    Last edited by zara; 08 Nov 17, at 11:42.

  11. #746
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    'I'm a patriot' Yep that's what separatists always say.
    No thats just what 'EU sympathisers' think they always say

    I guess the Republic of Texas organisation must be patriots too.
    To my knowledge Texas doesn't have a thousand year history as a nation that was hoodwinked into a corporate stitch up? ...Met some of them out in the sticks when I lived there. Very polite and very proud folk

    So I suppose Scottish and Welsh unionists are all traitors then for supporting a foreign power?
    A small child could spot the contradiction in that statement...I'll let you figure that one out for yourself...

    'Truth' - like the bendy bananas and Johnsons other lies? Funny someone who has wholly swallowed the euro-phobic murdoch drivel from the gutter press for decades gets to call those who worry about Russian influence 'sheep'.
    I was referring to the dirt digging and relentless barrage of misinterpretation read into anything any Tory says or does at the moment....Who needs the Russians when we have the British news media. They make the Russians look like rank amateurs!

  12. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Am just bored with the depth of distraction and complete crap that's being released......criminality is just that, bit like 2008....still nobody caught or maybe Iraq 2003 still nobody caught .....should I go on???? seen it been there got the t shirt ..in fact isn't this a re-run ...lol
    So in other words more 'whataboutism' and the reversion to conspiracy theory... Not bothered if British democracy was attacked as long as your view is winning. Very short sighted in my view.

  13. #748
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    So in other words more 'whataboutism' and the reversion to conspiracy theory... Not bothered if British democracy was attacked as long as your view is winning. Very short sighted in my view.
    and in English that actual English peoples understand that means?
    Last edited by Toby; 09 Nov 17, at 00:34.

  14. #749
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    and in English that actual English peoples understand that means?
    I do not normally tutor people in their own language but since you ask...

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Am just bored with the depth of distraction and complete crap that's being released......criminality is just that, bit like 2008....still nobody caught or maybe Iraq 2003 still nobody caught .....should I go on????
    I call this "whataboutism"; it equates to changing the subject and trying to claim some moral equivalence. 'Moscow annexed Crimea but what about Kosovo/Iraq' etc... Well we can argue those cases but what about the interference in the UK Brexit referendum which potentially threatens the UK's future security and unity? You see 2008 and 2003 and the slaughter of the Frog prisoners at Agincourt are not the issue we are discussing so raising such subjects does not add to the issue that must be addressed. The past is gone and we cannot change it but we can help the future. It is concerning that you are not more interested in the truth and the UKs future security in elections.

    As for conspiracy theories they are logically unprovable - that is their point. "Still nobody got caught" - Wow! Must be a conspiracy! Now we have only to decide who to blame everything on; the lizard aliens, the Jews, the Masons, reds/fascists, the Germans/Muscovites etc etc etc... From then everything you disapprove of is 'part of the conspiracy'. If someone dies unexpectedly - maybe a Minister or a relative - it was THEM clearly, though there is and never will be any evidence to prove 'because they are too sneaky'. I believe there are unicorns ruling Alpha Centuri; they are here and among us and responsible for all - Putin is a unicorn plant, a shapeshifting unicorn. Let's get them unicorns! Reductio ad absurdiam I know but conspiracy theories are BS.

  15. #750
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I do not normally tutor people in their own language but since you ask...
    Am a Lanc. English is a second language ta mi n'all



    I call this "whataboutism"; it equates to changing the subject and trying to claim some moral equivalence. 'Moscow annexed Crimea
    Moscow just took back what belonged to them ...Crimea was never really part of the Ukraine, which is why they didn't put any fight up after their Usurper took control.

    but what about Kosovo/Iraq' etc... Well we can argue those cases but what about the interference in the UK Brexit referendum which potentially threatens the UK's future security and unity? You see 2008 and 2003 and the slaughter of the Frog prisoners at Agincourt are not the issue we are discussing so raising such subjects does not add to the issue that must be addressed. The past is gone and we cannot change it but we can help the future. It is concerning that you are not more interested in the truth and the UKs future security in elections.

    As for conspiracy theories they are logically unprovable - that is their point. "Still nobody got caught" - Wow! Must be a conspiracy! Now we have only to decide who to blame everything on; the lizard aliens, the Jews, the Masons, reds/fascists, the Germans/Muscovites etc etc etc... From then everything you disapprove of is 'part of the conspiracy'. If someone dies unexpectedly - maybe a Minister or a relative - it was THEM clearly, though there is and never will be any evidence to prove 'because they are too sneaky'. I believe there are unicorns ruling Alpha Centuri; they are here and among us and responsible for all - Putin is a unicorn plant, a shapeshifting unicorn. Let's get them unicorns! Reductio ad absurdiam I know but conspiracy theories are BS
    Oh!

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