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Thread: The battle of Brexit!

  1. #61
    Senior Contributor Amled's Avatar
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    The hyenas and jackals are circling the old (but most definitely!) not toothless lion, hoping to tear of a piece of flesh.

    NEW FALKLANDS THREAT: Argentina uses Brexit to swoop on Islands

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...-EU-Brexit-bid

    EU can BACK OFF: Gibraltar chief says rock will be ‘MORE BRITISH’ after Brexit

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/786...U-negotiations
    When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

  2. #62
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    Of course you can, you just can't sign anything.
    Apologies I meant we can't sign trade deals...My understanding is that Liam fox and Boris were carrying out talks with india etc???
    Last edited by Toby; 02 Apr 17, at 02:37.

  3. #63
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    As a side note

    Some Gibraltar history

    The word Gibraltar derives from the Arabic 'Jabal Ṭāriq'

    In 1160, the Almohad Sultan Abd al-Mu'min ordered that a permanent settlement, including a castle, be built. It received the name of Medinat al-Fath (City of the Victory). On completion of the works in the town, the Sultan crossed the Strait to look at the works and stayed in Gibraltar for two months. The Tower of Homage of the Moorish Castle remains standing today. From 1274 onwards, the town was fought over and captured by the Nasrids of Granada (in 1237 and 1374), the Marinids of Morocco (in 1274 and 1333) and the kings of Castile (in 1309). In 1462, Gibraltar was finally captured by Juan Alonso de Guzmán, 1st Duke of Medina Sidonia.

    After the conquest, King Henry IV of Castile assumed the additional title of King of Gibraltar, establishing it as part of the comarca of the Campo Llano de Gibraltar. Six years later, Gibraltar was restored to the Duke of Medina Sidonia, who sold it in 1474 to a group of 4350 conversos (Christian converts from Judaism) from Cordova and Seville and in exchange for maintaining the garrison of the town for two years, after which time they were expelled, returning to their home towns or moving on to other parts of Spain.In 1501, Gibraltar passed back to the Spanish Crown, and Isabella I of Castile issued a Royal Warrant granting Gibraltar the coat of arms that it still uses today.

    In 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch fleet, representing the Grand Alliance, captured the town of Gibraltar on behalf of the Archduke Charles of Austria in his campaign to become King of Spain. The occupation of the town by Alliance forces caused the exodus of the population to the surrounding area of the Campo de Gibraltar. As the Alliance's campaign faltered, the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht was negotiated and ceded control of Gibraltar to Britain to secure Britain's withdrawal from the war.

    So it could be argued that Gibraltar has been British longer than it has been Spanish.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Apologies I meant we can't sign trade deals...My understanding is that Liam fox and Boris were carrying out talks with india etc???
    Talk all you like; the UK CANNOT legally sign any trade deal with another country (even Scotland say) until it leaves the EU. This is one of the farces of the way the customs union is organised - mostly to benefit Germany.

    Gibralter is British because 99% of it's inhabitants wish to remain British.
    Last edited by snapper; 02 Apr 17, at 19:39.

  5. #65
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Talk all you like;
    Thats your department, Remember?

    Gibralter is British because 99% of it's inhabitants wish to remain British.
    Its Gibraltar with an 'A' and its British because its where it is on the F-ckin map!!!!!!!
    Last edited by Toby; 02 Apr 17, at 22:48.

  6. #66
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    Completely agreed: the younger generations, and even some regions of the UK (Scotia, Northern Ireland) voted against the Brexit. One of the main problems for me is that 50% +1 pf the population was enough to decide on such an important decision. The minimum should have been 60% or even more - That is what happened during a referendum in Quebec: the minimum required for the independence of the province was 60% of the votes in favour.
    Part of the European people tend to see only the "bad aspects" of the EU but forget so much more: democracies that replaced dictatorships (Spain, Portugal, Greece), the possibility for former soviet countries to chose between Russia and an alternative, the immense funds given to develop these countries, free market, less borders (because yes, we Europeans we like to travel to our neighbor countries and we like it easy as it is right now), a regional model that other countries envy us and, the most important, peace. Without Europe, the younger generation would be in the battlefield right now fighting France, Germany or Slovenia. We tend to take all of this for granted and can't imagine the dangers of the disunion.
    The far right-wing is very active in this matter.Thanks to Steve Bannon, Breidbart and acolytes, the speech against the EU is predominant, be it manipulative and fake. Here in France, we are going to have our presidential elections at the end of the month. Le Pen, the far right wing, will certainly pass the first round, there is little doubt about it. Her party is functioning very well. Against her, Fillon from the right wing also (and he is so conservative that sometimes i don't even see the difference with Le Pen); the main left party is completely dislocated and the far left wing gains popularity but not enough to me to stop Le Pen. Macron, a centrist, is like a rogue candidate but to be honest, in all his TV appearances you could see that he needs more experience in terms of charisma and speech.
    I don't think Le Pen will win (though with Brexit and Trump you never know) because in France, there is a lot of conservatism (and manipulation) but most of the population won't accept Le Pen as president.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Did you really expect a non-threatening tone from the EU? I mean, we're rolling up 40 years of history. And given how for 35 years of that the UK has been oppressing and demeaning us there's a lot built up.

    It's kinda funny how the yellow press on the island starts with "shock demands" and such right now. Did anyone realistically not expect that Gibraltar would be a centerpiece to EU strategy? Along with another piece of real estate of course. The draft insists on the full application of the Good Friday Agreement. If you want a shock demand, the Good Friday Agreement states that if a majority of Northern Ireland votes thusly the UK is bound to transfer the territory to Ireland; not quite the Scottish situation in that regard. Let's see... 55.8% on June 24th... you know what i mean.
    The remainers expected it! We kept telling the quiters this would happen but they just called it 'Project fear' and said, 'don't worry the EU will give us everything we want because we buy a lot of German cars'

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Its Gibraltar with an 'A' and its British because its where it is on the F-ckin map!!!!!!!
    How does it's location make it British?

  9. #69
    Senior Contributor Amled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    How does it's location make it British?
    Tell me is the Gibraltar question really the can of worms that the EU should be opening?
    One of the great successes that the EU can boast over, has been the lessening of those national territorial disputes that has been the curse of Europe all through history. And now, at the first sign of crisis it plays out with a territorial dispute card.
    As said, a can of worms. There probably isn’t a nation here in Europe that having had (rightly or wrongly!) a historical land disagreement with its neighbors.
    As for the Spanish claim to Gibraltar? It is nauseatingly hypocritical! One has just to look across the strait from Gibraltar to see in Morocco, the two Spanish ruled enclaves, Ceuta and Melilla.
    When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amled View Post
    Tell me is the Gibraltar question really the can of worms that the EU should be opening?
    One of the great successes that the EU can boast over, has been the lessening of those national territorial disputes that has been the curse of Europe all through history. And now, at the first sign of crisis it plays out with a territorial dispute card.
    As said, a can of worms. There probably isn’t a nation here in Europe that having had (rightly or wrongly!) a historical land disagreement with its neighbors.
    As for the Spanish claim to Gibraltar? It is nauseatingly hypocritical! One has just to look across the strait from Gibraltar to see in Morocco, the two Spanish ruled enclaves, Ceuta and Melilla.
    I don't think the Spanish are really expecting much to change with respect to Gibraltar over this, it's probably aimed at something else, like getting the British to pay towards the medical care of the 300,000 odd British migrants living there (assuming they are allowed to stay). Spain also have influence with their veto over Scottish entry back into the EU, which they suggested they may not wield after all. We may find the EU will be less relaxed about Gibralator as a tax haven once we have left.

    I think we are going these kind of disputes much more difficult in future now that the default position of the entire European Continent will be to side with the non-British party..

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    I think we are going these kind of disputes much more difficult in future now that the default position of the entire European Continent will be to side with the non-British party..
    I am afraid I must agree. The beauty of being 'in the club' was that you could moan and urge reform - sometimes even achieve some reform; once you are leaving it's "none of your business" but the rest of the continent will stand united on the interests of their members in trade off deals.

  12. #72
    Senior Contributor Amled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    I don't think the Spanish are really expecting much to change with respect to Gibraltar over this, it's probably aimed at something else, like getting the British to pay towards the medical care of the 300,000 odd British migrants living there (assuming they are allowed to stay). Spain also have influence with their veto over Scottish entry back into the EU, which they suggested they may not wield after all. We may find the EU will be less relaxed about Gibralator as a tax haven once we have left.

    I think we are going these kind of disputes much more difficult in future now that the default position of the entire European Continent will be to side with the non-British party..
    So your premise is that Gibraltar and its 30,000 inhabitants are in essence simply a EU diplomatic bargaining chip? “Real Politick” 101 I guess.
    You also mentioned 30,000 British “migrants”. Your definition would seem to imply that there are 2-300 million (barring the Native population of course!) migrants in North America.
    I guess that depends on ones definition of the word “migrant”.
    When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amled View Post
    So your premise is that Gibraltar and its 30,000 inhabitants are in essence simply a EU diplomatic bargaining chip? “Real Politick” 101 I guess.
    You also mentioned 30,000 British “migrants”. Your definition would seem to imply that there are 2-300 million (barring the Native population of course!) migrants in North America.
    I guess that depends on ones definition of the word “migrant”.
    In so far as sovereignty, I'd say yes. I doubt the Spanish think for a second they will get sovereignty over Gibraltar, but in return for not Vetoing a trade deal that includes Gibraltar they could get something else they want.
    Perhaps they are more commited about the tax haven issue though.

    I think you mis-understood me as to the migrants - I was reffering to the British migrants living mainly in Andulusia and elsewhere, not the gibraltans. Thats why I said 300,000, not 30,000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I am afraid I must agree. The beauty of being 'in the club' was that you could moan and urge reform - sometimes even achieve some reform; once you are leaving it's "none of your business" but the rest of the continent will stand united on the interests of their members in trade off deals.
    Precisely. As of last week Rock All, Gibraltar, Northern Ireland and much much more undoubtedly became continental aspirations than merely Irish and Spanish.
    I find it incredible that Britain fought so hard to stop Napolean createing a continental economic system than excluded the UK and now we've voted for precisely that.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    ...I think you mis-understood me as to the migrants - I was reffering to the British migrants living mainly in Andulusia and elsewhere, not the gibraltans. Thats why I said 300,000, not 30,000.
    Sorry your right I misunderstood you.
    It may be that the diplomats just consider The Rock a chip in a larger game, but do the man in the street, see it that way?
    Playing around with a nationalistic icon; like the question of sovereignty over The Rock, may just backfire and lead to rampant jingoism
    .
    When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

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