Originally posted by zara
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The battle of Brexit!
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Originally posted by snapper View PostIt does, that is where they get budget from and the EU is a collective rather than a Union which is why it does not function at present. Britain sadly has conceded the terms to be left upto mostly the Krauts. Idiotic thing to do in my view but fine if you still had an Empire but you don't. "Living the past" as my Brother used to say (I think he said it come Jimi Hendrix). You have to understand that there is new European Empire scheme. You are welcome to be part of it - I recall a quote from one of the early meetings (in Sicily in the 1950s) from a Frog (!), who's name escapes me offhand but this Froggy said "There can be no Europe without Britain". Do you want shape it or let it shape you is the real question.
They want you in - in Poland and Ukraine we love Britain - even the stupid Governments. Estonia, where Britain leads the NATO contingent of the Rapid Response (buggers use the Yank spelling of responce) Force the Ladies want to marry your chaps - I have an Estonian friend (female) who is dating a British soldier. Get in the game - resigning it is a loss. 'kato', the Frogs and Krauts clean up - and then perhaps come further. You have got to be in the game to win it.
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Originally posted by zara View PostI agree about the Commission, I just think that once you make a countries commissioner directly elected, he or she then becomes accountable directly to the electrorate rather than the government of the particular country. They would in many senses be more powerful than the Prime Ministers, Taesiochs, Chancellors, Presidents etc. If the council is to retain power, then hireing and fireing must be in the power of the heads of states. For directly elected Commissioners, I think we need full Political and Fiscal union first. But those who complain most vocally about indirect democracy are allergic to further integregation.
Originally posted by zara View PostMy point was not that the EU is democratically pure, but the state of democracy is very poor in the UK. We have a first past the post electoral system with a unelected 2nd chamber and a hereditory monarch! Brexiteers overlook that, and portray the EU as totalitarian fascists. It takes 300,000 votes to get 10 DUP MP's and 1.5 million votes to get 1 green MP. That is not democratic, but we accept the flaws.
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Originally posted by Toby View PostProportional representation sounds good but in practice creates more problems than it solves. At least with FPP you can achieve a clear mandate from the electorate. You can't with PR. The reality is that as with any club committee, one individual makes the actual decision and gets things done, everybody else falls into line or resigns usually because they've realised their voice is meaningless....Same with PR, you'll end up with either a coalition that's frightened of its own shadow or a leader from the pack that'll ride rough shod over the rest....British system works perfectly well unless your a liberal or a UKIP supporter. But yes the house of lords needs to be reformed.
I think have sympathy with you say about PR, but you must acknowledge that FPTP is imperfect, just like how the EU council selects its commissioners. We dont go around calling the UK fascist or a dictatorship. We accept the flaws.Last edited by zara; 18 Aug 17,, 00:00.
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Originally posted by zara View Postyou must acknowledge that FPTP is imperfect
It's also damn funny that when you google for that Google comes up with a Brexit cartoon in its definition.
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I'm not making an argument either way about PR or FPTP, im genuinely persuadable either way. My point is that no democratic system is pure, whether it is the EU, the UK, Ireland, Germany, the Ukraine or the USA. But for some reason the EU is consistently described in the same terms as North Korea, Zimbabwe and (soon to be) Venezuala.
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Originally posted by Toby View PostThe only entity that wants to threaten a hard border is the EU...not the Uk at all ....its completely out of UK's interest to establish that hard border again. David Davis is saying the same ....the Irish PM just came over to the UK and tried to make out we were the bad guys..You know why? Its because thats the only way he can communicate back to Brussels that he doesn't agree with their strategy....THe EU is a failed concept because its not democratic!
OK I can see the current Brexiteer strategy is to paint this as 'Were not going to have a border, its up to the EU if it wants to enforce its customs union'.
This comes crashing down as soon as the UK starts doing trade deals with other countries and its customs rules start to diverge with that of the EU.
If the UK gets this trade deal with the US and chlorinated chickens start flowing across the border (to pick a topical example, but the reality will be far more complex and less understood than this), then we have a problem. This goes both ways...
But the brutal reality is that if a hard border comes about, and the consequences we all fear materialise, both sides will blame the other, but history will record it as a result of Brexit.
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Originally posted by zara View PostIts not about Liberal or UKIP, its about geographical distpertion. FPTP rewards population concentrations which encourages silo voting and silo campaigning.
I think have sympathy with you say about PR, but you must acknowledge that FPTP is imperfect, just like how the EU council selects its commissioners. We dont go around calling the UK fascist or a dictatorship. We accept the flaws.
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Originally posted by kato View PostFPTP is far more democratic than PR in that it makes it far easier to erect the tyranny of the majority.
It's also damn funny that when you google for that Google comes up with a Brexit cartoon in its definition.
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Originally posted by zara View Post#
They also lead to compromise. Plenty of countries use PR and rub along just fine and others don't.
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According to this silly map...US and Canada, China and UK map are Non existent? Do you not have REAL jobs to go to?Last edited by Toby; 21 Aug 17,, 23:42.
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Originally posted by zara View PostThey are ommitted because they don't have a form of PR
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Originally posted by zara View PostOK I can see the current Brexiteer strategy is to paint this as 'Were not going to have a border, its up to the EU if it wants to enforce its customs union'.
.Last edited by Toby; 23 Aug 17,, 22:19.
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I thought the current strategy is "Brexit? What Brexit?".
I mean - staying in customs union, accepting the ECJ, setting aside money to pay your bills... if you didn't ruin your economy anyway it's almost like you still want to be a member and not a pariah like the other European non-EU, non-EFTA states.
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