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Thread: The battle of Brexit!

  1. #526
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    I agree about the Commission, I just think that once you make a countries commissioner directly elected, he or she then becomes accountable directly to the electrorate rather than the government of the particular country. They would in many senses be more powerful than the Prime Ministers, Taesiochs, Chancellors, Presidents etc. If the council is to retain power, then hireing and fireing must be in the power of the heads of states. For directly elected Commissioners, I think we need full Political and Fiscal union first. But those who complain most vocally about indirect democracy are allergic to further integregation.

    My point was not that the EU is democratically pure, but the state of democracy is very poor in the UK. We have a first past the post electoral system with a unelected 2nd chamber and a hereditory monarch! Brexiteers overlook that, and portray the EU as totalitarian fascists. It takes 300,000 votes to get 10 DUP MP's and 1.5 million votes to get 1 green MP. That is not democratic, but we accept the flaws.
    Proportional representation sounds good but in practice creates more problems than it solves. At least with FPP you can achieve a clear mandate from the electorate. You can't with PR. The reality is that as with any club committee, one individual makes the actual decision and gets things done, everybody else falls into line or resigns usually because they've realised their voice is meaningless....Same with PR, you'll end up with either a coalition that's frightened of its own shadow or a leader from the pack that'll ride rough shod over the rest....British system works perfectly well unless your a liberal or a UKIP supporter. But yes the house of lords needs to be reformed.
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  2. #527
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    It does, that is where they get budget from and the EU is a collective rather than a Union which is why it does not function at present. Britain sadly has conceded the terms to be left upto mostly the Krauts. Idiotic thing to do in my view but fine if you still had an Empire but you don't. "Living the past" as my Brother used to say (I think he said it come Jimi Hendrix). You have to understand that there is new European Empire scheme. You are welcome to be part of it - I recall a quote from one of the early meetings (in Sicily in the 1950s) from a Frog (!), who's name escapes me offhand but this Froggy said "There can be no Europe without Britain". Do you want shape it or let it shape you is the real question.

    They want you in - in Poland and Ukraine we love Britain - even the stupid Governments. Estonia, where Britain leads the NATO contingent of the Rapid Response (buggers use the Yank spelling of responce) Force the Ladies want to marry your chaps - I have an Estonian friend (female) who is dating a British soldier. Get in the game - resigning it is a loss. 'kato', the Frogs and Krauts clean up - and then perhaps come further. You have got to be in the game to win it.
    I'll say again the EU does not have a GDP, as it's not a sovereign state (not yet anyway)Yes it works out contributions from member states GDP. The point I was making was the 10 billion Nett Britain contributes to the EU's budget of 157 billion Euro's is alot more than the 0.056% that Kato stated. I can only think his computer had a melt down.
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  3. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    I agree about the Commission, I just think that once you make a countries commissioner directly elected, he or she then becomes accountable directly to the electrorate rather than the government of the particular country. They would in many senses be more powerful than the Prime Ministers, Taesiochs, Chancellors, Presidents etc. If the council is to retain power, then hireing and fireing must be in the power of the heads of states. For directly elected Commissioners, I think we need full Political and Fiscal union first. But those who complain most vocally about indirect democracy are allergic to further integregation.
    I am pleased that you accept that the Union is not entirely democratic. Fiscal union though... insanity. I think it was Nicholas Ridley who said it the most honest "a German racket aimed at the restoration to control Europe" or words to that effect, sorry cannot recall the exact wording offhand. It was absolute idiocy to believe Germany and Hellas could survive comfortably for any sustained period with the same currency exchange rate. There was only one winner from the start. Thousands of Greeks have committed suicide - I saw a Lady jump myself. Why? Because they had to stay in the euro and become a tariff free export market for Deutschland? They can NEVER pay their debts mathematically. It was a form of financial ethnic cleansing and the people responsible need prosecuting - not to mention those who gave the orders to rob the Cypriots - they never touched the Muscovite accounts strangely. No sister the euro was the crowning idiocy. We would be far better off competing; it encourages innovation occasionally. I own half a French boulangerie in Kyiv... We can compete and should go get them! Reality is not going to stop knocking because the Krauts want a closed market to subsidise their other exports. The world will catch up.

    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    My point was not that the EU is democratically pure, but the state of democracy is very poor in the UK. We have a first past the post electoral system with a unelected 2nd chamber and a hereditory monarch! Brexiteers overlook that, and portray the EU as totalitarian fascists. It takes 300,000 votes to get 10 DUP MP's and 1.5 million votes to get 1 green MP. That is not democratic, but we accept the flaws.
    Well I must disagree. If we could get a vote on a first past the post electoral voting system in the Rada (Ukrainian Parliament) I would lead a bunch of troops in myself and make them vote for it. Then (in my dreams) shoot the corrupt bastards. Sadly we have Vova problem first, currently in his Palace down the coast. I am afraid that though I have left Her Majesties Governments employ I swore oaths to the Crown. Long may England honour it's oaths; it is part of what makes a country - a society - honourable. I do not forget my oaths lightly. God save her! Shame about her sons.

  4. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Proportional representation sounds good but in practice creates more problems than it solves. At least with FPP you can achieve a clear mandate from the electorate. You can't with PR. The reality is that as with any club committee, one individual makes the actual decision and gets things done, everybody else falls into line or resigns usually because they've realised their voice is meaningless....Same with PR, you'll end up with either a coalition that's frightened of its own shadow or a leader from the pack that'll ride rough shod over the rest....British system works perfectly well unless your a liberal or a UKIP supporter. But yes the house of lords needs to be reformed.
    Its not about Liberal or UKIP, its about geographical distpertion. FPTP rewards population concentrations which encourages silo voting and silo campaigning.
    I think have sympathy with you say about PR, but you must acknowledge that FPTP is imperfect, just like how the EU council selects its commissioners. We dont go around calling the UK fascist or a dictatorship. We accept the flaws.
    Last edited by zara; 18 Aug 17, at 00:00.

  5. #530
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    you must acknowledge that FPTP is imperfect
    FPTP is far more democratic than PR in that it makes it far easier to erect the tyranny of the majority.

    It's also damn funny that when you google for that Google comes up with a Brexit cartoon in its definition.

  6. #531
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    I'm not making an argument either way about PR or FPTP, im genuinely persuadable either way. My point is that no democratic system is pure, whether it is the EU, the UK, Ireland, Germany, the Ukraine or the USA. But for some reason the EU is consistently described in the same terms as North Korea, Zimbabwe and (soon to be) Venezuala.

  7. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    The only entity that wants to threaten a hard border is the EU...not the Uk at all ....its completely out of UK's interest to establish that hard border again. David Davis is saying the same ....the Irish PM just came over to the UK and tried to make out we were the bad guys..You know why? Its because thats the only way he can communicate back to Brussels that he doesn't agree with their strategy....THe EU is a failed concept because its not democratic!

    OK I can see the current Brexiteer strategy is to paint this as 'Were not going to have a border, its up to the EU if it wants to enforce its customs union'.
    This comes crashing down as soon as the UK starts doing trade deals with other countries and its customs rules start to diverge with that of the EU.

    If the UK gets this trade deal with the US and chlorinated chickens start flowing across the border (to pick a topical example, but the reality will be far more complex and less understood than this), then we have a problem. This goes both ways...

    But the brutal reality is that if a hard border comes about, and the consequences we all fear materialise, both sides will blame the other, but history will record it as a result of Brexit.

  8. #533
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    Its not about Liberal or UKIP, its about geographical distpertion. FPTP rewards population concentrations which encourages silo voting and silo campaigning.
    I think have sympathy with you say about PR, but you must acknowledge that FPTP is imperfect, just like how the EU council selects its commissioners. We dont go around calling the UK fascist or a dictatorship. We accept the flaws.
    All methods of voting are imperfect, you don't need to be a genius to work that out. But in leadership decisions have to be made otherwise you have paralysis..coalitions lead to chaos..
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  9. #534
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    FPTP is far more democratic than PR in that it makes it far easier to erect the tyranny of the majority.

    It's also damn funny that when you google for that Google comes up with a Brexit cartoon in its definition.
    FPTP has serious flaws, But I prefer that any day of the week to political paralysis
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  10. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    ..coalitions lead to chaos..
    #

    They also lead to compromise. Plenty of countries use PR and rub along just fine and others don't.

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