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Thread: The battle of Brexit!

  1. #526
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    I agree about the Commission, I just think that once you make a countries commissioner directly elected, he or she then becomes accountable directly to the electrorate rather than the government of the particular country. They would in many senses be more powerful than the Prime Ministers, Taesiochs, Chancellors, Presidents etc. If the council is to retain power, then hireing and fireing must be in the power of the heads of states. For directly elected Commissioners, I think we need full Political and Fiscal union first. But those who complain most vocally about indirect democracy are allergic to further integregation.

    My point was not that the EU is democratically pure, but the state of democracy is very poor in the UK. We have a first past the post electoral system with a unelected 2nd chamber and a hereditory monarch! Brexiteers overlook that, and portray the EU as totalitarian fascists. It takes 300,000 votes to get 10 DUP MP's and 1.5 million votes to get 1 green MP. That is not democratic, but we accept the flaws.
    Proportional representation sounds good but in practice creates more problems than it solves. At least with FPP you can achieve a clear mandate from the electorate. You can't with PR. The reality is that as with any club committee, one individual makes the actual decision and gets things done, everybody else falls into line or resigns usually because they've realised their voice is meaningless....Same with PR, you'll end up with either a coalition that's frightened of its own shadow or a leader from the pack that'll ride rough shod over the rest....British system works perfectly well unless your a liberal or a UKIP supporter. But yes the house of lords needs to be reformed.
    Picture a courthouse with no fuckin laws, Picture a cathouse with no fuckin whores
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  2. #527
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    It does, that is where they get budget from and the EU is a collective rather than a Union which is why it does not function at present. Britain sadly has conceded the terms to be left upto mostly the Krauts. Idiotic thing to do in my view but fine if you still had an Empire but you don't. "Living the past" as my Brother used to say (I think he said it come Jimi Hendrix). You have to understand that there is new European Empire scheme. You are welcome to be part of it - I recall a quote from one of the early meetings (in Sicily in the 1950s) from a Frog (!), who's name escapes me offhand but this Froggy said "There can be no Europe without Britain". Do you want shape it or let it shape you is the real question.

    They want you in - in Poland and Ukraine we love Britain - even the stupid Governments. Estonia, where Britain leads the NATO contingent of the Rapid Response (buggers use the Yank spelling of responce) Force the Ladies want to marry your chaps - I have an Estonian friend (female) who is dating a British soldier. Get in the game - resigning it is a loss. 'kato', the Frogs and Krauts clean up - and then perhaps come further. You have got to be in the game to win it.
    I'll say again the EU does not have a GDP, as it's not a sovereign state (not yet anyway)Yes it works out contributions from member states GDP. The point I was making was the 10 billion Nett Britain contributes to the EU's budget of 157 billion Euro's is alot more than the 0.056% that Kato stated. I can only think his computer had a melt down.
    Picture a courthouse with no fuckin laws, Picture a cathouse with no fuckin whores
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  3. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    I agree about the Commission, I just think that once you make a countries commissioner directly elected, he or she then becomes accountable directly to the electrorate rather than the government of the particular country. They would in many senses be more powerful than the Prime Ministers, Taesiochs, Chancellors, Presidents etc. If the council is to retain power, then hireing and fireing must be in the power of the heads of states. For directly elected Commissioners, I think we need full Political and Fiscal union first. But those who complain most vocally about indirect democracy are allergic to further integregation.
    I am pleased that you accept that the Union is not entirely democratic. Fiscal union though... insanity. I think it was Nicholas Ridley who said it the most honest "a German racket aimed at the restoration to control Europe" or words to that effect, sorry cannot recall the exact wording offhand. It was absolute idiocy to believe Germany and Hellas could survive comfortably for any sustained period with the same currency exchange rate. There was only one winner from the start. Thousands of Greeks have committed suicide - I saw a Lady jump myself. Why? Because they had to stay in the euro and become a tariff free export market for Deutschland? They can NEVER pay their debts mathematically. It was a form of financial ethnic cleansing and the people responsible need prosecuting - not to mention those who gave the orders to rob the Cypriots - they never touched the Muscovite accounts strangely. No sister the euro was the crowning idiocy. We would be far better off competing; it encourages innovation occasionally. I own half a French boulangerie in Kyiv... We can compete and should go get them! Reality is not going to stop knocking because the Krauts want a closed market to subsidise their other exports. The world will catch up.

    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    My point was not that the EU is democratically pure, but the state of democracy is very poor in the UK. We have a first past the post electoral system with a unelected 2nd chamber and a hereditory monarch! Brexiteers overlook that, and portray the EU as totalitarian fascists. It takes 300,000 votes to get 10 DUP MP's and 1.5 million votes to get 1 green MP. That is not democratic, but we accept the flaws.
    Well I must disagree. If we could get a vote on a first past the post electoral voting system in the Rada (Ukrainian Parliament) I would lead a bunch of troops in myself and make them vote for it. Then (in my dreams) shoot the corrupt bastards. Sadly we have Vova problem first, currently in his Palace down the coast. I am afraid that though I have left Her Majesties Governments employ I swore oaths to the Crown. Long may England honour it's oaths; it is part of what makes a country - a society - honourable. I do not forget my oaths lightly. God save her! Shame about her sons.

  4. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Proportional representation sounds good but in practice creates more problems than it solves. At least with FPP you can achieve a clear mandate from the electorate. You can't with PR. The reality is that as with any club committee, one individual makes the actual decision and gets things done, everybody else falls into line or resigns usually because they've realised their voice is meaningless....Same with PR, you'll end up with either a coalition that's frightened of its own shadow or a leader from the pack that'll ride rough shod over the rest....British system works perfectly well unless your a liberal or a UKIP supporter. But yes the house of lords needs to be reformed.
    Its not about Liberal or UKIP, its about geographical distpertion. FPTP rewards population concentrations which encourages silo voting and silo campaigning.
    I think have sympathy with you say about PR, but you must acknowledge that FPTP is imperfect, just like how the EU council selects its commissioners. We dont go around calling the UK fascist or a dictatorship. We accept the flaws.
    Last edited by zara; Today at 00:00.

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