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Thread: The battle of Brexit!

  1. #16
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zara View Post
    Depressing. I hope Europeans keep in mind that leaving is the wishes of the old in the UK. The young overwhelming voted against this divorce, and its their future.
    If the EU treats the UK well in the next few years, the next generation may well overturn this decision. Treat the UK badly, and they will be driven away.
    Ageism
    (also spelled "agism") is stereotyping and discriminating against individuals or groups on the basis of their age. This may be casual or systematic.The term was coined in 1969 by Robert Neil Butler to describe discrimination against seniors, and patterned on sexism and racism. Butler defined "ageism" as a combination of three connected elements. Among them were prejudicial attitudes towards older people, old age, and the aging process; discriminatory practices against older people; and institutional practices and policies that perpetuate stereotypes about elderly people.

    While the term has also been used to describe prejudice and discrimination against adolescents and children, including ignoring their ideas because they are too young, or assuming that they should behave in certain ways because of their age, the term is predominantly used in relation to the treatment of older people. Moreover, it has been pointed out that stigmatization does not only occur outside of the cohesively imagined group of the elderly but likewise takes place within the stigmatized group itself.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageism

  2. #17
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Wouldn't be so sure the Polish Government will be with you on this.
    But they'll expect us to be with them on other issues, such as defence..should be quite interesting.


    Meet the British Poles who back Brexit
    Olenka Hamilton

    Britain’s Poles appear to be struggling with a sort of Brexit-induced identity crisis. Earlier this month, BBC News showed Poles in Leeds expressing support for Brexit. I’m sure many people would have found this confusing. Aren’t a lot of these Poles in Britain thanks to an EU work permit and therefore benefitting directly from Britain’s EU membership?

    Witold Sobkow, Britain’s Polish Ambassador, says Britain’s exit would be problematic for Polish people living in Britain. ‘EU labour rights of 800,000 Poles in the UK would become void if the UK left the EU,’ he says. Their future in Britain would be in the balance. So why are they in favour of Brexit?

    It seems Brexit is as appealing to many of Britain’s Poles as it is to Britain’s Brits, and not just in Leeds. They just can’t deny a life outside the EU might suit Britain better.

    The most uncompromising of Brexit-backing Poles are those who came to Britain when Poland was still a communist country. Barbara Taylor, a solicitor who has been in London since 1976, is all-out backing Brexit. She accepts that some Poles might have to go home if Britain left the EU, but her mind is made up.

    ‘The EU reminds me of a totalitarian state, like Poland was when I left,’ she says. ‘Like the Soviet Union, the EU is pushing for complete conformity and unity which I find uncomfortable. Brussels is propagating a destruction of national pride.’

    Taylor wants Britain to have its sovereignty back. Whereas in Poland rules and regulations imposed by the communist government stifled personal freedom and economic development, Britain was completely free. Now though, she feels Britain has become restricted by over-regulation from Brussels and association with an anti-competitive Eurozone. It would become stronger with more freedom, less regulation and lower taxes.

    And as a lawyer, she feels the loss of sovereignty particularly in relation to the courts which are fast losing credibility as a result of pressure from Brussels. ‘English courts and English judges have become spineless,’ she says, giving the Abu Hamza case as an example. ‘They are terrified of making decisions in contravention to EU law.’

    George Byczynski, 26, a lawyer who coordinates an organisation called ‘British Poles’, which has over 22,000 followers on Facebook, is still undecided about Brexit, but says the question of national sovereignty resonates strongly with Poles of all generations: ‘I feel it has been very healthy for the EU to be confronted by Britain on its future and the issues of red tape and bureaucracy, [and] the fading sovereignty of national parliaments.’

    Paradoxically, the Polish government and Poles living in Poland want Britain to stay for the same reason Poles living in Britain want Britain to leave. Poland also finds the EU suffocating and supports the move to draw powers from Brussels and hand them back to the EU’s national governments. But Poland likes having Britain in the EU, because Britain is the country that is leading the fight for EU reform in these areas. They need Britain to initiate and fight the battles.

    ‘Cameron’s proposals prove that an alternative exists, that changes can be made to the EU institutions,’ says Professor Arkady Rzegocki, a political science professor at Krakow’s Jagiellonian University and head of the university’s Polish Research Centre in London. Rzegocki echoes Poland’s government, which counts the UK as a more liberal ally at the negotiating table, a fellow opponent of the ‘ever closer union’ being pushed by France and Germany.

    Referring to the latest EU Summit in February, where EU leaders agreed the terms of Britain’s renegotiation, Ambassador Sobkow says Poland now depends on the UK’s continued membership: ‘The solutions adopted in the area of economic management, competitiveness and sovereignty are beneficial from the point of view of Polish. In our opinion, they improve the functioning of the European Union, making it more flexible and competitive.’ Furthermore, Sobkow points out that the package of reforms will come into force only if Britain votes to remain in the EU. If Britain leaves, it will be void.

    Barbara Taylor concedes that Poland might want Britain to stay but her allegiance lies with Britain. ‘Although I am Polish, I am also British now – my children are British too – and I can see that the EU is dragging Britain down.’
    Last edited by Toby; 29 Mar 17, at 18:11.

  3. #18
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    Defence? You're still in NATO. And you really don't want out of that.

    Here's an idea though. Let the Scots go. Then scrap the Trident boomer replacement cuz Faslane. Then use the saved money to pay what you owe us. Should come up just about right.

    P.S.: current Spiegel Online top cover story - "Fantasies from Brexit Land". They renamed it. It was first "Fantasies from Little Britain". It's mostly about accusing Corbyn of being delusional, forecasting Brexiteers blaming the EU for "punishing" them by shoving them out - so they don't have to take responsibility - as well as some chuckling about the Daily Mail's apocalyptic prophecies and their opinion that May's letter to Tusk announcing withdrawal sounds desperate in some places.
    Last edited by kato; 29 Mar 17, at 18:20.

  4. #19
    Dirty Kiwi Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Defence? You're still in NATO. And you really don't want out of that.

    Here's an idea though. Let the Scots go. Then scrap the Trident boomer replacement cuz Faslane. Then use the saved money to pay what you owe us. Should come up just about right..
    I'm curious about this. Why should Britain pay the EU €60B? For some sort of ongoing trade deal?
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  5. #20
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    what you owe us..
    Owe??? Sorry. We OWE NOTHING!!..If anybody Owes anything then Germany owe Nato as your Defence spending is and has been way below 2% for some time. We're talking alot more than 50 billion as well, so cough up
    Last edited by Toby; 29 Mar 17, at 19:25.

  6. #21
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    I'm curious about this. Why should Britain pay the EU €60B? For some sort of ongoing trade deal?
    It boils down to socialism. A political group of people who believe they are 'Entitled' to other peoples hard earned brass.

  7. #22
    Senior Contributor Amled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Owe??? Sorry. We OWE NOTHING!!..If anybody Owes anything then Germany owe Nato as your Defence spending is and has been way below 2% for some time. We're talking alot more than 50 billion as well, so cough up
    In line with the topic of this thread: The battle is on!
    Only an estimated 730 days left.
    When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

  8. #23
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amled View Post
    In line with the topic of this thread: The battle is on!
    Only an estimated 730 days left.
    Danish exports to Britain near 16-year lows in post-Brexit months

    Danish exports to Britain fell in August for the second straight month, official data showed on Monday, after Britons' June vote to leave the European Union sent the pound to its lowest level against the euro for more than five years.

    Exports to Britain from Denmark, whose currency is pegged to the euro, fell 10.5 percent in August to 2.75 billion Danish crowns (£333 million), from July, when they fell 4 percent.

    Danish Agriculture & Food Council, a lobby group, blamed the weaker pound for lower exports.

    The group's chief economist Frank Oland said: "If the exit isn't handled properly, our exports to Britain could fall significantly. It's important that we keep Britain as close to the single market as possible."

    "Exports to Britain only need to fall a bit more before they hit their lowest since 2000," he said.

    Danish Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen on Monday told British PM Theresa May he would work for a "friendly divorce" between Britain - Denmark's fifth biggest export market - and the European Union when Brexit talks begin.

    Separately on Monday, Arla Foods, a major exporter and one of Europe's biggest dairy companies with major production facilities in Britain, said investments there would continue and that exports to Britain have risen so far this year.

    "We have invested heavily in England for a number of years, and our main focus now is to create value from those investments. We will continue to invest in the UK even in a post-Brexit environment," Peter Giortz-Carlsen, executive vice president at Arla Foods, told broadcaster TV2 in an interview.

    Total Danish exports in August fell 3.4 percent, taking the country's monthly trade balance down to 5.2 billion Danish crowns, 4 billion lower than the same month last year.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    But they'll expect us to be with them on other issues, such as defence..should be quite interesting.


    Meet the British Poles who back Brexit
    Olenka Hamilton

    Britain’s Poles appear to be struggling with a sort of Brexit-induced identity crisis. Earlier this month, BBC News showed Poles in Leeds expressing support for Brexit. I’m sure many people would have found this confusing. Aren’t a lot of these Poles in Britain thanks to an EU work permit and therefore benefitting directly from Britain’s EU membership?

    Witold Sobkow, Britain’s Polish Ambassador, says Britain’s exit would be problematic for Polish people living in Britain. ‘EU labour rights of 800,000 Poles in the UK would become void if the UK left the EU,’ he says. Their future in Britain would be in the balance. So why are they in favour of Brexit?

    It seems Brexit is as appealing to many of Britain’s Poles as it is to Britain’s Brits, and not just in Leeds. They just can’t deny a life outside the EU might suit Britain better.

    The most uncompromising of Brexit-backing Poles are those who came to Britain when Poland was still a communist country. Barbara Taylor, a solicitor who has been in London since 1976, is all-out backing Brexit. She accepts that some Poles might have to go home if Britain left the EU, but her mind is made up.

    ‘The EU reminds me of a totalitarian state, like Poland was when I left,’ she says. ‘Like the Soviet Union, the EU is pushing for complete conformity and unity which I find uncomfortable. Brussels is propagating a destruction of national pride.’

    Taylor wants Britain to have its sovereignty back. Whereas in Poland rules and regulations imposed by the communist government stifled personal freedom and economic development, Britain was completely free. Now though, she feels Britain has become restricted by over-regulation from Brussels and association with an anti-competitive Eurozone. It would become stronger with more freedom, less regulation and lower taxes.

    And as a lawyer, she feels the loss of sovereignty particularly in relation to the courts which are fast losing credibility as a result of pressure from Brussels. ‘English courts and English judges have become spineless,’ she says, giving the Abu Hamza case as an example. ‘They are terrified of making decisions in contravention to EU law.’

    George Byczynski, 26, a lawyer who coordinates an organisation called ‘British Poles’, which has over 22,000 followers on Facebook, is still undecided about Brexit, but says the question of national sovereignty resonates strongly with Poles of all generations: ‘I feel it has been very healthy for the EU to be confronted by Britain on its future and the issues of red tape and bureaucracy, [and] the fading sovereignty of national parliaments.’

    Paradoxically, the Polish government and Poles living in Poland want Britain to stay for the same reason Poles living in Britain want Britain to leave. Poland also finds the EU suffocating and supports the move to draw powers from Brussels and hand them back to the EU’s national governments. But Poland likes having Britain in the EU, because Britain is the country that is leading the fight for EU reform in these areas. They need Britain to initiate and fight the battles.

    ‘Cameron’s proposals prove that an alternative exists, that changes can be made to the EU institutions,’ says Professor Arkady Rzegocki, a political science professor at Krakow’s Jagiellonian University and head of the university’s Polish Research Centre in London. Rzegocki echoes Poland’s government, which counts the UK as a more liberal ally at the negotiating table, a fellow opponent of the ‘ever closer union’ being pushed by France and Germany.

    Referring to the latest EU Summit in February, where EU leaders agreed the terms of Britain’s renegotiation, Ambassador Sobkow says Poland now depends on the UK’s continued membership: ‘The solutions adopted in the area of economic management, competitiveness and sovereignty are beneficial from the point of view of Polish. In our opinion, they improve the functioning of the European Union, making it more flexible and competitive.’ Furthermore, Sobkow points out that the package of reforms will come into force only if Britain votes to remain in the EU. If Britain leaves, it will be void.

    Barbara Taylor concedes that Poland might want Britain to stay but her allegiance lies with Britain. ‘Although I am Polish, I am also British now – my children are British too – and I can see that the EU is dragging Britain down.’

    By the looks of this it was written when Cameron was 'renegotiating' and I am sure you would find the Polish community in UK is slightly more concerned. Don't get me wrong; I would be delighted if you sent them home! Poland needs them as Ukraine needs the some 1m Ukrainians in Poland. But your real problem is the Polish Government not the Polish community in the UK, many of whom (as your film showed) you have reason to be grateful to. I suspect Barbara Taylor, as myself, are products of the WW2 Polish refugee influx into Britain. The modern Polish influx are more 'economic migrants' than the Poles who arrived during WW2 wishing only to continue the fight. The current Polish Government will want the rights of the both generations influx of their people guaranteed. For myself I hope you send them all back - doesn't bother me that you will have to pay more in wages. I have already abandoned the ship Britannia though I still have enormous sympathy and respect for British institutions, way of life and people; my last Sister who was still living in England is leaving and moving to... Poland. My other Sister, who was living in France is coming to Ukraine. Do what you want; you have around a 10% chance of "having your cake and eating it" and if you cannot achieve that you are in for a boatload of pain.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    I'm curious about this. Why should Britain pay the EU €60B? For some sort of ongoing trade deal?
    It's a bit complicated. The EU has a number of programs - grants - that don't pay out directly but over the space of the remainder of the current budget round. That would be until 2020 - always over a space of 7 years, current round runs since 2014. These are mostly research grants (of which a lot go to the UK) and infrastructure subventions (which mostly go to Eastern Europe) as well as similar programmes. These grants have already been officially proportioned to specific projects, they'll just pay out at certain dates in the future when the individual project is that far. The EU has the position that since the UK actively signed off this budget and all the projects involved, and also acknowledged its share in that, it'd have to pay up for the current round. What's contested is projects that'd pay out in 2019 and 2020, i.e. during the current budget round but after the UK is no longer a member of the EU.

    What the EU wants in this regard is 29 billion for such not-yet-paid-but-signed-off projects, 18 billion for similar projects paid out of the structural fonds of the EU and 10 billion for the same for the EU aid programme for member states in financial crises; cashflow back to the UK would be around 9 billion Euro, which would of course be deducted from the bill. On top of that are the pensions for EU staff, which are calculated based on member contributions; the EU wants 7.7 billion for this, based on a calculated worth of 63.8 billion, an assumed reduction by 20 billion and the British share in contributions. The last item on the bill is contributions to multi-year projects that the UK is part of as a beneficiary, in particular Copernicus (the Sentinel satellite constellation); 5 billion in total, of which 1 billion flows back to the UK.

    However, the 60 billion are a purely political number. A number of the above projects will die off before they get their money, in particular the financial aid programme is considered unlikely to be tapped at all. Brussels considers it unlikely that the UK can be swayed on the structural fonds too, but it also has a number of ways to increase the number again - one item that is supposedly under consideration is threatening to retroactively cancel the British rebate. Other possible levers and items of negotiation - either way - is the EU's own property; the UK has stated before that it wants a share of that, likely at least the real estate on British soil.

  11. #26
    Dirty Kiwi Senior Contributor
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    Okay, so it's basically a divorce proceeding, who gets what etc. Thanks Kato :-)
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility

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  12. #27
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    HELLO ALL CALLSIGNS Echo Uniform ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, " END EX .OUT.".

    goodbyeeeeee goooodbyeeeeeeeeee wipe a tear moanin minny goooooooddbyeeeee


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  13. #28
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I am sure you would find the Polish community in UK is slightly more concerned. .
    Cheeky Polish businessmen launch Brexit energy drinks 'just for a laugh'...but they are selling like hotcakes


    Pawel Tumilowicz, 39, insists the pair named their product Brexit Energy Drink ‘for a laugh’ and not for any political reason

    Name:  Pawel-Tumilowicz-decided-to-turn-Brexit-into-his-own-brand-2.jpg
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    Two cheeky Polish businessmen have launched an energy drink called Brexit 'just for a laugh', and they are selling like hotcakes.

    Pawel Tumilowicz and Mariusz Majchrzak have caused something of a stir in Prestwich where their business is based since they began selling the beverage.

    Pawel, 39, insists the pair named their product Brexit Energy Drink ‘for a laugh’ and not for any political reason.

    The dad-of-three, who lives in Higher Broughton, said: “It was just a bit of fun really.

    “People keep asking us whether we were trying to make a political statement or anything like that.

    “We weren’t at all. We just thought it was quite a cheeky name so we went with it.

    “It seems to be working too. Our business is doing well.

    “It’s a new business and it’s a different type of product. It’s a great energy drink and I think people really like it...and not just for the name.

    “It’s quite tasty, you know.”

    Pawel moved to Manchester from Poland 12 years ago to work as a security guard and has lived here ever since, the Manchester Evening News reports.

    He says he has not experienced any hostility towards him or his family in the wake of Britain’s vote to leave the European Union.

    In fact, he’s optimistic about Britain’s future.

    “I think it will be fine,” he said.

  14. #29
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    The few

    of the 2,332 Allied pilots that fought in the Battle of Britain 145 were Polish claiming a Total of 201 enemy aircraft out of an estimated 2300 kills. Yes I am grateful, as I'm sure they were.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Ageism
    (also spelled "agism") is stereotyping and discriminating against individuals or groups on the basis of their age. This may be casual or systematic.The term was coined in 1969 by Robert Neil Butler to describe discrimination against seniors, and patterned on sexism and racism. Butler defined "ageism" as a combination of three connected elements. Among them were prejudicial attitudes towards older people, old age, and the aging process; discriminatory practices against older people; and institutional practices and policies that perpetuate stereotypes about elderly people.

    While the term has also been used to describe prejudice and discrimination against adolescents and children, including ignoring their ideas because they are too young, or assuming that they should behave in certain ways because of their age, the term is predominantly used in relation to the treatment of older people. Moreover, it has been pointed out that stigmatization does not only occur outside of the cohesively imagined group of the elderly but likewise takes place within the stigmatized group itself.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageism
    Really??

    Im not saying oldies should be treated any different. Just saying that tomorrows voters are pro-EU. The leave victory was a slim one, we have many years to think again and if the EU wants to keep them on side then it should avoid giving us a punitive deal.
    Last edited by zara; 29 Mar 17, at 23:49.

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