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Thread: The battle of Brexit!

  1. #196
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
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    Its not a disrespectful question.

    You are members of an organization. One that has its good parts and bad. There are certain obligations placed on you as a member. But by fulfilling those obligations you also receive the perks.

    Now you want to leave. Fine. But why do you think you should give up your obligations and still reap the benefits of membership?

    On a Barney level, It would be like me deciding that I no longer wanted to pay for Sams Club/Cosco membership, But still expected them to allow me to shop there and use their travel/auto buying benefits like a member. Thats what it seems the Brexit group want
    Human Scum. Proud Never Trumper

  2. #197
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    The EU (which we never voted to join by the way) .
    Did you have a vote on joining NATO? Or any other organization that your country is a member of?

    Like the States you elected the people that you thought would best serve the goals and interest of the country. The duly elected government decided that joining the EU was good for the country.

    You may not have voted on joining in 1973 but you voted to stay in 75
    Human Scum. Proud Never Trumper

  3. #198
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    Its not a disrespectful question.

    You are members of an organization. One that has its good parts and bad. There are certain obligations placed on you as a member. But by fulfilling those obligations you also receive the perks.

    Now you want to leave. Fine. But why do you think you should give up your obligations and still reap the benefits of membership?

    On a Barney level, It would be like me deciding that I no longer wanted to pay for Sams Club/Cosco membership, But still expected them to allow me to shop there and use their travel/auto buying benefits like a member. Thats what it seems the Brexit group want
    Note that after 13 pages of bravado and "screw them", the moral argument of "How could they do this to us" raises it ugly head once it becomes clear that it might not be rainbows and puppies after all.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  4. #199
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    Did you have a vote on joining NATO? Or any other organization that your country is a member of?

    Like the States you elected the people that you thought would best serve the goals and interest of the country. The duly elected government decided that joining the EU was good for the country.

    You may not have voted on joining in 1973 but you voted to stay in 75
    And voted to leave in 2016.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  5. #200
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    After reading 13 pages of "They are not treating us fair", I must ask a simple question.

    Why did the people that voted for Brexit think that they could leave the EU but still enjoy all the benefits?
    What benefits you have in mind. The best ones (free trade, free movements and even free movement of people are not exclusive to EU members.

    To my understanding they don't have issues paying for that. They do have issues for paying to someone in Brussels to decide how many foreigners (Non-EU) will enter the UK. Don't compare it to the USA, because they never voted for Junker, for one.

    You also make it sound like the UK is the only who objects these things.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    Its not a disrespectful question.

    You are members of an organization. One that has its good parts and bad. There are certain obligations placed on you as a member. But by fulfilling those obligations you also receive the perks.

    Now you want to leave. Fine. But why do you think you should give up your obligations and still reap the benefits of membership?

    On a Barney level, It would be like me deciding that I no longer wanted to pay for Sams Club/Cosco membership, But still expected them to allow me to shop there and use their travel/auto buying benefits like a member. Thats what it seems the Brexit group want
    The UK is a democracy (supposedly). Originally we voted to join the European Common Market (EEC). Nothing was mentioned about a political union or that our laws would gradually be eroded. Our passports changed without our consent. The first vote we got to say whether we wanted to be a member of a political Union was last June. You know the result!
    With regard to your question about giving up our obligations and still reaping the benefits, What benefits???We're a Net contributor! I'd love to have my passport stamped when I visit Italy, Spain etc.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    Did you have a vote on joining NATO? Or any other organization that your country is a member of?
    Thats a completely different ball park and a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters, get a grip!

    Like the States you elected the people that you thought would best serve the goals and interest of the country. The duly elected government decided that joining the EU was good for the country.

    You may not have voted on joining in 1973 but you voted to stay in 75
    We didn't join the EU, We joined the EEC. Which was promoted at the time by Ted Heath as a trade agreement. Which you will observe is all we want now. Penny dropped yet?

  8. #203
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Thats a completely different ball park and a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters, get a grip!
    No its not. You just don't have a good answer.

    We didn't join the EU, We joined the EEC. Which was promoted at the time by Ted Heath as a trade agreement. Which you will observe is all we want now. Penny dropped yet?
    Your government signed on for the whole thing. And you will get a trade agreement. But it isn't going to be the same one that you had as a member state. Nor should it be.

    So back to the question . Why do you think you should get the same trade deal as a member state vice having to negotiate a agreement with the EU like the rest of the world?

    Simple question, doesn't require accusations of muddying waters, or "You don't understand". I'm just trying to understand. Form an outsiders PoV
    Human Scum. Proud Never Trumper

  9. #204
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Meanwhile...

    UK unemployment rate hits 42-year low
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  10. #205
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    No its not. You just don't have a good answer.



    Your government signed on for the whole thing. And you will get a trade agreement. But it isn't going to be the same one that you had as a member state. Nor should it be.

    So back to the question . Why do you think you should get the same trade deal as a member state vice having to negotiate a agreement with the EU like the rest of the world?

    Simple question, doesn't require accusations of muddying waters, or "You don't understand". I'm just trying to understand. Form an outsiders PoV
    I'll answer it. Because Switzerland and Norway have those trade agreements. Heck even we can export to the EU without tariffs.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Meanwhile...

    UK unemployment rate hits 42-year low
    Average weekly earnings excluding bonuses increased by 2.1%. in the three months to March, while inflation rose by 2.3% in the year to March 2017.

    In the first three months of this year, wages fell by 0.2%.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39945782

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    I'll answer it. Because Switzerland and Norway have those trade agreements. Heck even we can export to the EU without tariffs.
    Norway is paying an amount for that trade agreement to the EU that - by GDP share - is roughly equivalent to what the UK paid in membership fees. Without getting a say in anything.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    No its not. You just don't have a good answer.



    Your government signed on for the whole thing. And you will get a trade agreement. But it isn't going to be the same one that you had as a member state. Nor should it be.

    So back to the question . Why do you think you should get the same trade deal as a member state vice having to negotiate a agreement with the EU like the rest of the world?

    Simple question, doesn't require accusations of muddying waters, or "You don't understand". I'm just trying to understand. Form an outsiders PoV
    We're not leaving NATO, we are leaving the EU. How CLEAR would you like it?
    We haven't said we want the same deal as a member. Don't know where you're getting that from.
    In the famous words of David Davies when asked what hard Brexit meant. 'I'm not sure, we'll have to wait and see what is offered '
    My take on it is that it's not so much what we the UK want. But more on the lines of how many vehicles the Germans don't want to sell to us. Comparing the UK to Norway or Switzerland is a mistake. They aren't comparable.

    By the way I was trying to make you aware that we were conned in 1975....I guess that bit didn't resonate.
    Last edited by Toby; 17 May 17, at 22:41.

  14. #209
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    Inflation is now 2.7%. Nowhere near 25% as it was in the 70s

  15. #210
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Norway is paying an amount for that trade agreement to the EU that - by GDP share - is roughly equivalent to what the UK paid in membership fees. Without getting a say in anything.
    You deliberatelly forgot the Swiss neighbor. And who says you wont pay to return the favor?

    My point was that there are non-member states who enjoy many of the good sides even without paying a cent to Brussels.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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