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Thread: The Military–Industrial complex

  1. #31
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke
    Many Irish-descended persons in England are more patriotic than your everyday Briton/Englander
    Not really, As a whole we have a healthy disrespect for any authority, especially people who wave a flag in our face. We're not American.
    Last edited by Toby; 23 Apr 17, at 23:14.

  2. #32
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Not really, As a whole we have a healthy disrespect for any authority, especially people who wave a flag in our face. We're not American.
    I stand corrected - I've never fully explored or asked any Englanders or Britons of Irish descent their thoughts regarding their history, background, and thoughts. I generalized something seen in America to be also be generally true in England. From what you've told me, my previous statement is generally not the case with regards to Irish in Britain.

  3. #33
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    I stand corrected - I've never fully explored or asked any Englanders or Britons of Irish descent their thoughts regarding their history, background, and thoughts. I generalized something seen in America to be also be generally true in England. From what you've told me, my previous statement is generally not the case with regards to Irish in Britain.
    You're an interesting guy ( I assume you're a guy?) with a thoughtful opinion, I respect that.
    I found it very difficult to explain the cultural differences when I lived in Texas....Most days my jaw ached from rounding my words and not using my Northern accent...I was mistaken for Scottish ..Irish ..some people just stared and went shy after I spoke...quite difficult to deal with at times...I got asked to say something in my local dialect frequently which was funny at first but started to gnaw after a while.
    I believe in the American dream simply because I'm British and its something worth aspiring to. However I didn't see much of it while I was there...everything is about turning a coin, it is here too but not to that extent. Yep had a glass of wine or 5 so I'm rambling..lol
    You are right in part by the way about immigrants being more patriotic because they feel they have something to prove. My problem is as with many English from the North, I don't see the Irish, Scottish or Welsh as foreigners. Because thats who we are!
    I probably should also add that considering how long the Asian community have populated the Northern mill towns, they in the main have not integrated. Which I find very troubling as do many. You'd need to ask them how patriotic they feel because from where I'm stood they don't look like they want to be apart of anything we stand for. In conversations I've had this does change depending on region and also educational background
    Last edited by Toby; 24 Apr 17, at 00:42.

  4. #34
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    You're an interesting guy ( I assume you're a guy?) with a thoughtful opinion, I respect that.
    I was the principal visionary in the founding of WAB in its current format. Way back in July 2003 - the forum had previously been hosted on globalrelations.net for several weeks. We ported the forum to this domain on August 2, 2003 as it had an existing vBulletin license, but the previous site was a completely different forum concerning roleplaying micronations, that has since been lost to the vagaries of time, none of the original content survived the globalrelations.net port.

    WAB represented a merger between a dozen or so high profile contributors across several different geopolitical discussion communities that discovered one another, and coalesced here.

    WAB was created in co-operation with many other people, without whom WAB would have never existed. After all, one guy's vision means nothing if others also don't join in. I merely hustled and rounded up a bunch of people I was able to persuade to join me as contributors and staff members.

    The origin story of WAB is relatively banal - an endless stream of annoying tldr; instant messages in May/June 2003 on MSN Messenger from me to people who are mostly no longer with us, but were critical in founding WAB and stayed on for various periods of time - then the squeaky wheel (me) got the grease, and voila, this forum was born.

    Tophatter is the longest serving staff member - 3 months after the forum was founded. I say that, because I'm not a staff member anymore.

    I was the principal admin through 2011, since then, the reins have since passed to other capable hands.

    astralis runs the show now, along with JAD, Parihaka, Tophatter, and others I'm not yet quite familiar with.

    Anyways, that's who I am. In case you might have been wondering or didn't know.

    Got a few things to do - there was a post I skipped on that I'll address tonight.

    Yes, I'm a guy.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 24 Apr 17, at 01:25.

  5. #35
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    I was the principal visionary in the founding of WAB in its current format. Way back in July 2003 - the forum had previously been hosted on globalrelations.net for several weeks. We ported the forum to this domain on August 2, 2003 as it had an existing vBulletin license, but the previous site was a completely different forum concerning roleplaying micronations, that has since been lost to the vagaries of time, none of the original content survived the globalrelations.net port.

    WAB represented a merger between a dozen or so high profile contributors across several different geopolitical discussion communities that discovered one another, and coalesced here.

    WAB was created in co-operation with many other people, without whom WAB would have never existed. After all, one guy's vision means nothing if others also don't join in. I merely hustled and rounded up a bunch of people I was able to persuade to join me as contributors and staff members.

    The origin story of WAB is relatively banal - an endless stream of annoying tldr; instant messages in May/June 2003 on MSN Messenger to people who are mostly no longer with us, then the squeaky wheel (me) got the grease, and voila, this forum was born.

    I was the principal admin through 2011, since then, the reins have since passed to other capable hands.

    astralis runs the show now, along with JAD, Parihaka, Tophatter, and others I'm not yet quite familiar with.

    Anyways, that's who I am. In case you might have been wondering or didn't know.

    Got a few things to do - there was a post I skipped on that I'll address tonight.
    The Iron Duke was Wellington?

  6. #36
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    The Ironduke is a reference to three things, in descending order:

    1) The 4-cylinder engine in my second car, a 1986 Pontiac 6000, which is nicknamed in mechanic circles the 'Ironduke'. The 6000 is a type of car that flies under the radar, however, it just keeps running and it's hard to kill the engine - as long as you change the oil and keep it lubricated, it never stops and just keeps going.

    From there, I just went with it, the other two retroactive continuity references are:

    2) The Duke of Wellington - he himself got his nickname in a disparaging manner - he often had to close his iron curtains when rioters bombarded his residence with rotten vegetables, glass bottles, and rocks while he was Prime Minister.

    3) The HMS Ironduke - the Dreadnought pictured at left under my username - when it needed to, it could turn and direct its 13.5 inch guns, arrive at a firing solution, and land a heavy salvo directly on target.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 24 Apr 17, at 01:43.

  7. #37
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    All famines are doubtless partly due to social or political unwillingness to alleviate them to some extent and I am not seeking to deny every 'human factor' in the Irish or any other case. The distinction I am drawing is that some famines also have natural causes whereas some are predominantly man made. In the Irish case there was a potato disease, in Ethiopia there was a drought etc which precipitated the disaster.
    The Irish were basically enslaved in a tenant-landlord relationship very unfavorable for poor tenant farmers, and very favorable for the landlords, who were usually lords in their own right. The Irish model from the 16th century is what slavery in America was based upon. The Irish were merely swapped out first for indentured servants, and finally black slaves in America.

    The Irish did not eat potatoes because they liked potatoes. It's not like Pringles, where once they popped, they just couldn't stop. It was the only food source they could reasonably grow on what tiny plots were allotted to them for self-sustenance, while they worked the rest of their landlord's land engaged primarily in beef, dairy, and wheat production destined for England. Ireland was an agricultural colony meant to feed England. The potatoes were the only food the Irish could grow as the rest were primarily exported.

    The blight merely aggravated pre-existing man-made conditions. Slavery under a different name, potatoes are the only food allowed to you, and then a blight hits the only food you are allowed to eat. Famine. The causes were man-made. Irish dependence on the potato was a result of centuries of greed and avarice. Then the blight hit the potato, and millions died or emigrated. The blight devastated the potato crop, but Irish dependence on the potato crop was not a willing choice on their part. Enforced poverty, no alternative food sources, and serfdom under landlords were the drivers.

    If the Irish were allowed a diversified food supply - the potato blight wouldn't have had much of an impact. They were not allowed a diversified food supply - even though it was readily available. There was too much profit in selling cheese, butter, and beef in England - the Irish were allowed to starve while mountains of rich calories were shipped east across the Irish Sea.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 24 Apr 17, at 06:56.

  8. #38
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I believe in the American dream simply because I'm British and its something worth aspiring to. However I didn't see much of it while I was there...everything is about turning a coin, it is here too but not to that extent.
    Too many in the US believe crass materialism is the standard to aspire to - unfortunate, really. This is true everywhere - but in the US is crass materialism on hyper-steroids. There should be a point where people are satisfied with what they have - where enough is enough - but there's this drive to consume as much as possible. People get emotionally invested in a big pile o' stuff, and stake their entire ego on this big pile 'o stuff. Most of the population seems to determine a person's worth by how big their pile 'o stuff is - which I suppose is generally the case everywhere - but is on steroids in the US.

    I suppose it was the same in prehistoric times, as the man with the most shiny rocks and agates was probably seen as the social better, more intelligent, and the best mating prospect relative to everyone else. And wars with spear and atlatl probably broke out between caveman tribes over various caveman collections of shiny rocks and agates. I suppose that cavemen were even killed over a very particular hard-to-find singular agate.

    Too much work and not enough life, as the saying goes, here in the US. My personal view. Something like 20% of the population is medicated at any one time - I see it as a result of perfectly ordinary people being overtaxed and ill-adapted to the entirely artificial nature and tempo of the modern world we live in.

    I live something close to a Danish or Dutch lifestyle myself, a form of genteel poverty, far beneath my means, which is practical in the city I happen to live in. I err on the side of enjoying life - if I have too much money - I'm working too much and haven't been having as good of a time as I should be. Personally, I will always choose meatspace social capital over money, any time, any where.

    To me, the real dream is to live life as well as possible. I don't aspire to a McMansion or even a regular McHouse - made of Grade D pine lumber clad in particle board, with gypsum powder caked between two sheets of paper for walls, cupboards made of glued sawdust board, with extruded vinyl exterior siding, with asphalt squares on the top of the whole thing. Nor do I need three cars, electronics that get thrown away every year, or furniture that matches the drapes in a room that nobody uses, to feel like I'm living the dream.

    Some day, perhaps in my 50s, I might rent a backhoe and dig a hole near a river or lake near the Hudson Bay. Then build my own house from scratch with real materials. Stone, brick and mortar, oak, maple, etc. Collect the stone and wood myself, perhaps even mold and fire the bricks. I might pour concrete for the foundation and hire a local to help me with a handful of things, but that's about it. That's my dream.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 24 Apr 17, at 08:48.

  9. #39
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    You are right in part by the way about immigrants being more patriotic because they feel they have something to prove. My problem is as with many English from the North, I don't see the Irish, Scottish or Welsh as foreigners. Because thats who we are!
    Well, technically - the English themselves are of blended Celtic-Germanic ancestry.

    Myself, direct patrilineal descent, I'm Cornish. Cattle ranchers. Other members of my distant family in Cornwall are masons - the last name can be found engraved on many of the cornerstones in Truro and other cities.

    There was a lot of land in Canada and not much in Cornwall. My family arrived in PEI in the 1830s. After the arrival, there were two branches that split on each side of the Great Lakes - from Eastern Ontario - a leather tannery that still operates today was established in Pennsylvania by one branch, and from Western Ontario - my branch progressively established a series of cattle ranches in Minnesota, Kansas, and Texas, moving south as time went on.

    The last ancestor of mine who had a British accent died in 1953 - my grandpa's grandpa. Not a Cornish accent, it might have been RP. Or it could have been Cornish for all I know - I know Cornish sounds nothing like RP but who knows how Midwesterners from his arrival in the 80s/90s to his death in 1953 would have perceived it. My grandpa told me a lot about him, he died 29 years before I was born, so I never got to meet the guy.

    He was a 1/4 Cornish, and the rest was Scottish and English via his mother and father's mother. He was the patriarch of the family, and was locally known as the Englishman in the county on the Iowa-Minnesota border where he had his several thousand head, feed lots, corn farms, slaughterhouses, butcher's shop and grocery. Privately, he reminded his family despite what the locals called him, he was Cornish, not English.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 24 Apr 17, at 11:45.

  10. #40
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Shame, a somehwat very interesting and educational discussion got derailed. Oh, well...
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  11. #41
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Shame, a somehwat very interesting and educational discussion got derailed. Oh, well...
    You can always re-rail it by chipping in on something from page 1 or 2. ;-)

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    [QUOTE=Ironduke;1024253]The Ironduke is a reference to three things, in descending order:

    1) The 4-cylinder engine in my second car, a 1986 Pontiac 6000, which is nicknamed in mechanic circles the 'Ironduke'. The 6000 is a type of car that flies under the radar, however, it just keeps running and it's hard to kill the engine - as long as you change the oil and keep it lubricated, it never stops and just keeps going.

    Ironduke: And entirely under rated car and engine combination. Ran mine out to 250,000 miles before my better half absolutely refused to get in it to go anywhere! I kept trying to tell her that if it was going to break...... it would have broken many many miles before a quarter of a million! Nice thread, and a little WAB history, thanks.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I believe in the American dream simply because I'm British and its something worth aspiring to. However I didn't see much of it while I was there...everything is about turning a coin, it is here too but not to that extent. Yep had a glass of wine or 5 so I'm rambling..lol
    You say you visited Texas. Did you visit any other parts of America? Were most of your contacts business related? And as for turning a coin....remember our founding documents were written by men who, while politicians, were also merchants. This is reflected in the business influence on our Constitution.

    And as for the wine....in vino vertitas!!!
    “We had been hopelessly labouring to plough waste lands; to make nationality grow in a place full of the certainty of God… Among the tribes our creed could be only like the desert grass – a beautiful swift seeming of spring; which, after a day’s heat, fell dusty.”
    ― T.E. Lawrence, Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    The blight merely aggravated pre-existing man-made conditions. Slavery under a different name, potatoes are the only food allowed to you, and then a blight hits the only food you are allowed to eat. Famine. The causes were man-made. Irish dependence on the potato was a result of centuries of greed and avarice. Then the blight hit the potato, and millions died or emigrated. The blight devastated the potato crop, but Irish dependence on the potato crop was not a willing choice on their part. Enforced poverty, no alternative food sources, and serfdom under landlords were the drivers.

    If the Irish were allowed a diversified food supply - the potato blight wouldn't have had much of an impact. They were not allowed a diversified food supply - even though it was readily available. There was too much profit in selling cheese, butter, and beef in England - the Irish were allowed to starve while mountains of rich calories were shipped east across the Irish Sea.
    Look I am not saying the response was adequate by today's standards but it would not have occurred had not the blight occurred. It's a bit like arguing that the Black Death wasn't handled as well as it might have been; sure - wiping out fleas and rats would have helped but at the time nobody understood that. That does NOT mean that the Black Death was "man made" or "waiting to happen" it wasn't. The same for the Spanish flu epidemic etc; these have natural causes which the understanding of the time was not upto sufficiently alleviating; the reaction given historical hindsight could and should have been better but the cause was 'natural'.
    Last edited by snapper; 25 Apr 17, at 16:49.

  15. #45
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Shame, a somehwat very interesting and educational discussion got derailed. Oh, well...
    LOL, come on Doc say something controversial...

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