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Thread: The Military–Industrial complex

  1. #16
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    We bombed Korea into oblivion too. From Pusan to the Yalu.

    The US most definitely had interests at stake in Iran. It is my opinion, that the Anglo-Persian Oil Company was the bigger interest. One thing to keep in mind is that parties almost definitely misstate their interests and motives, and up-play certain things while downplaying others. You cannot take every account at face value and only think on the surface level.

    The immediate cause of the eventual operation and coup was loss of the Anglo-Persian Oil Company. The United States then went about and found excuses of its own to layer on top of that to justify its actions. The bread and meat of the issue was the Anglo-Persian Oil Company. The United States added cheese, lettuce, onion, mustard, and a slice of tomato and made what it thought was an even tastier sandwich out of it.

  2. #17
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Running out to the store - but it's just that I feel I'm detecting a hint of reductivist reasoning. When people do something, they might have 3, 5, or 10 reasons for doing it. Some of those reasons may even be contradictory. When two or more parties are involved, the number of reasons multiplies and the contradictions add up. To resolve the resulting cognitive dissonance, it is often convenient to reduce everything to one singular, grand reason, and then additionally be in denial about the contradictions.

    But that does not mean that other reasons do not exist, or even that there are not contradictory reasons for doing that thing.

    I'll be back later.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 21 Apr 17, at 00:18.

  3. #18
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    Running out to the store - but it's just that I feel I'm detecting a hint of reductivist reasoning. When people do something, they might have 3, 5, or 10 reasons for doing it. Some of those reasons may even be contradictory. When two or more parties are involved, the number of reasons multiplies and the contradictions add up. To resolve the resulting cognitive dissonance, it is often convenient to reduce everything to one singular, grand reason, and then additionally be in denial about the contradictions.

    But that does not mean that other reasons do not exist, or even that there are not contradictory reasons for doing that thing.

    I'll be back later.
    That store must be doing a great trade....

    Nothing is black and white, I understand. Actions can lead to unforeseen situations and consequences. Multiple objectives of different parties can lead to 'a Syria'. I'm sure you could put this better but I get where you are going.

    Around the Time of Operation Ajax the CIA was spreading its wings after being Schooled by SIS. I tend to look at this period as America taking the Mantle. It wasn't long after this event that another event took place namely SUEZ, after which the Mantle had most definitely been taken by the US. The US military had proven to be unrivalled (except for the Soviets) and had now accomplished an international intelligence gathering operation. Something which it lacked or was limited during the second world war.

    Hard to believe how quickly all this took place and that in terms of history it was only a short time ago. On our part we most definitely supply expertise where needed in different shapes and forms to the US.( which is reciprocal ) More than any other country I would say and that in its self is acknowledgement of role reversal. People forget we were and still are a small island off the coast of Europe with big ambitions.

  4. #19
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    Just a couple of things; first the Irish potato problem followed a potato blight where because all the potatoes were clones as it were and not genetically diverse enough the entire crop was destroyed by one rogue bug. In England and elsewhere there was more genetic diversity so the effects were not as drastic. It was next to nothing to do with the lack of ability to import food from abroad but this reliance on imports was recognised and the reason for the strength and per-eminense of the Fleet in British military thinking.

  5. #20
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Just a couple of things; first the Irish potato problem followed a potato blight where because all the potatoes were clones as it were and not genetically diverse enough the entire crop was destroyed by one rogue bug. In England and elsewhere there was more genetic diversity so the effects were not as drastic. It was next to nothing to do with the lack of ability to import food from abroad but this reliance on imports was recognised and the reason for the strength and per-eminense of the Fleet in British military thinking.
    Sorry my eye is not on the ball at present. Moving house is very distracting....But yeh a long period of rain causing devastation to the Potato crop is hardly due to lack of planning. Like most problems over come in the Victorian period, Massive population growth in the industrial cities caused huge decisions to be made to counter all kinds of problems...Life expectancy in say Manchester in the early 19th century was 27, largely due to non existent sewerage and appalling sanitation. Infrastructure projects answered these problems but it took time and massive effort. In terms of the UK feeding it self, this was only addressed during WW2 (to my knowledge) and actually reached 78% self reliance in the early 80's,unfortunately its been in rapid decline ever since....

    In terms of the size of the British fleet, as Snapper says its primary purpose was to protect movement of goods something which is carried out globally these days by various Navies.

  6. #21
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Just a couple of things; first the Irish potato problem followed a potato blight where because all the potatoes were clones as it were and not genetically diverse enough the entire crop was destroyed by one rogue bug. In England and elsewhere there was more genetic diversity so the effects were not as drastic. It was next to nothing to do with the lack of ability to import food from abroad but this reliance on imports was recognised and the reason for the strength and per-eminense of the Fleet in British military thinking.
    Ireland was exporting millions of tons of beef, pork, ham, cheese, butter, and wheat to England at this time - food items that were very profitable for the landlords of Ireland, but which the typical Irish could not afford to eat much of - they certainly were not given much or any at all of these foodstuffs. These were luxury food items destined for England and the export went on relatively uninterrupted.

    Ireland was an oasis of food during the famine - potatoes were the only crop that suffered, massive exports continued unabated. Ireland was primarily an agricultural colony to feed the burgeoning population of the UK for several centuries. Limitless amounts of green grass = lots of dairy and beef.

    Something like 80% or more of the population subsisted on potatoes grown on whatever small plots they were allowed on their landlord's estate - while primarily working in the agricultural export sector for their landlord.

    It is not really any different than the famines in Roman Egypt - the native Egyptians would starve to death by the hundreds of thousands or even millions, so that Rome could eat.

    This is yet another uncomfortable truth - yet it is the truth nonetheless. This and a multitude of other similar factors are the primary reason for the historical Irish animus toward the UK.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 23 Apr 17, at 07:35.

  7. #22
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    I have no doubt that the social hierarchy at the time was not 'ideal' but the difference between the Irish potato famine and say the Ukrainian Holodomor was that if had the potato blight had not occurred, or had there been great genetic differences in the potatoes grown - the famine would not have occurred. In Ukraine it was arguably far more 'man made' and on purpose notwithstanding the then current social hierarchy structure in place in both/either.

    Possibly you know that the blight came from the US?
    Last edited by snapper; 23 Apr 17, at 08:25.

  8. #23
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    the historical Irish animus toward the UK.
    Towards the establishment maybe. But seeing as there's more people with Irish blood in them in the UK, than there is in Ireland. I find that illogical. Prior to the famine huge amounts of Irish labour helped build the Canals and railway systems that litter the landscape. Especially here in Manchester and the surrounding area. Most of this labour did not return home. You only have to pick up an old phone directory to realise who the present day English actually are in the historical industrial areas.

    Ireland was an oasis of food during the famine - potatoes were the only crop that suffered, massive exports continued unabated. Ireland was primarily an agricultural colony to feed the burgeoning population of the UK for several centuries. Limitless amounts of green grass = lots of dairy and beef.
    They still do, another 'uncomfortable truth' for Ireland and the EU mafia to suck on. Ireland although independent relies even more heavily on the UK economy than it did when it was apart of it.
    Last edited by Toby; 23 Apr 17, at 09:50.

  9. #24
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I have no doubt that the social hierarchy at the time was not 'ideal' but the difference between the Irish potato famine and say the Ukrainian Holodomor was that if had the potato blight had not occurred, or had there been great genetic differences in the potatoes grown - the famine would not have occurred. In Ukraine it was arguably far more 'man made' and on purpose notwithstanding the then current social hierarchy structure in place in both/either.

    Possibly you know that the blight came from the US?
    So Ukrainian potatoes can withstand a deluge of rain that washes away the soil and all the nutrients needed to sustain healthy growth?

    (are we really having a conversation about potatoes? I prefer Cyprus ones for chips, Jerseys for boiling, Marabella for roasting and Maris piper for mashing....being part Irish I'm a freakin authority on this subject ;-) Anyway I'm off on a bike ride over the moors and when I get back I'll be on Hash browns or maybe potato cakes, haven't decided yet)
    Last edited by Toby; 23 Apr 17, at 09:57.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    So Ukrainian potatoes can withstand a deluge of rain that washes away the soil and all the nutrients needed to sustain healthy growth?
    I am not sure any crop could survive "a deluge of rain that washes away the soil and all the nutrients needed to sustain healthy growth" but the blight was a disease as much as rain. As for Ukraine it is mostly grain country and we are blessed with 'black earth' such that a single Ukrainian harvest (and in some places double harvests are possible) could in theory supply all of Europe. That is why Ukraine was the object of Stalin and Hitlers ambitions (Hitlers being the whole 'lebensraum' BS and Stalin's version being the previous Holodomor which fortunately my ancestors avoided living in what was then Poland).

  11. #26
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I am not sure any crop could survive "a deluge of rain that washes away the soil and all the nutrients needed to sustain healthy growth" but the blight was a disease as much as rain. As for Ukraine it is mostly grain country and we are blessed with 'black earth' such that a single Ukrainian harvest (and in some places double harvests are possible) could in theory supply all of Europe. That is why Ukraine was the object of Stalin and Hitlers ambitions (Hitlers being the whole 'lebensraum' BS and Stalin's version being the previous Holodomor which fortunately my ancestors avoided living in what was then Poland).
    I believe so, I had a conversation a few years back with a former Waffen SS soldier...Thats what he said,'Black earth' he also said that it needed Germans to get the full yield from it. As the peasants that occupied the land didn't know what they were doing (his words not mine) He was quite unrepentant.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I believe so, I had a conversation a few years back with a former Waffen SS soldier...Thats what he said,'Black earth' he also said that it needed Germans to get the full yield from it. As the peasants that occupied the land didn't know what they were doing (his words not mine) He was quite unrepentant.
    There was loony (even by Nazi standard schemes) plan to ship Ukrainian topsoil into Germany. Think even a few trainloads actually got sent to the Fatherland.

  13. #28
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I have no doubt that the social hierarchy at the time was not 'ideal' but the difference between the Irish potato famine and say the Ukrainian Holodomor was that if had the potato blight had not occurred, or had there been great genetic differences in the potatoes grown - the famine would not have occurred. In Ukraine it was arguably far more 'man made' and on purpose notwithstanding the then current social hierarchy structure in place in both/either.

    Possibly you know that the blight came from the US?
    The potatoes and the blight are irrelevant. The fact is that Ireland was exporting 5x more calories in the form of meat and dairy than the potatoes provided either before, during, and after the famine is what made the potato famine an unnecessary, completely avoidable tragedy.

    Talking about potatoes and blights is getting lost in the weeds. Potatoes and blight are a non-factor. The issue is the fact that 5x as many calories were being exported to England before/after the famine, and perhaps 10x as many during the famine. This is what ruined Ireland. The Irish only consumed potatoes because they were denied every other former of sustenance, sustenance that was, in fact, locally abundant in enormous quantities throughout the famine.

    The metropole was fed with good beef and dairy - marginal Ireland suffered.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 23 Apr 17, at 20:37.

  14. #29
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Towards the establishment maybe. But seeing as there's more people with Irish blood in them in the UK, than there is in Ireland. I find that illogical. Prior to the famine huge amounts of Irish labour helped build the Canals and railway systems that litter the landscape. Especially here in Manchester and the surrounding area. Most of this labour did not return home. You only have to pick up an old phone directory to realise who the present day English actually are in the historical industrial areas.
    The Irish emigrated to England for the same reasons we see migration flows from North Africa/Middle East to Europe, or Mexico/Latin America to the United States.

    The same exact factors that drive these two types of modern-day immigration are the same factors that drove Irish immigration to the UK.

    I'll give you an example that occurs in my own country: Mexican-American border patrol agents can be even dedicated to their jobs and enforcement activities than their White American counterparts, as they feel they have something to prove. Many Irish-descended persons in England are more patriotic than your everyday Briton/Englander - as the saying goes in converts to Catholicism, they are more Catholic than the Pope, just as Mexican-American border patrol agents are even more dedicated and patriotic than their white counterparts.

    These are the same exact qualities playing themselves out, the only difference is the place/location these universal aspects of human nature are occurring in.

    900+ years ago - the Anglo-Norman elite in Ireland went native as well - they became more Irish than they Irish themselves. This is the origin of the term, 'going native'.

    Ireland and England have been deeply intertwined since the Norman days. Dublin was in fact an English city for over 800 years - and since Irish independence, it's only been an Irish city for less than 100.

    They still do, another 'uncomfortable truth' for Ireland and the EU mafia to suck on. Ireland although independent relies even more heavily on the UK economy than it did when it was apart of it.
    Even with independence - the economic ties were not torn. England and especially southern England/London is the metropole - Ireland is on the margins. No different than a suburb that is independently governed from the metropolis it lies at some distance from - but make no mistake, the suburb is still almost entirely dependent on the metropolis for its well-being.

    We see the same thing playing out in the intertwining of Canada and the US, the same exact thing occurs with regards to the UK and Ireland.

    A suburb can be far wealthier and affluent than the metropole - but if say, Minneapolis were to disappear overnight, for the sake of argument, and I don't mean this literally - let's say it was sucked into another dimension - nobody would have jobs in the suburbs. Even the wealthiest suburbs are dependent on 6-7 figure salaries that are only found for the most part in Minneapolis.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 23 Apr 17, at 20:39.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    The potatoes and the blight are irrelevant. The fact is that Ireland was exporting 5x more calories in the form of meat and dairy than the potatoes provided either before, during, and after the famine is what made the potato famine an unnecessary, completely avoidable tragedy.

    Talking about potatoes and blights is getting lost in the weeds. Potatoes and blight are a non-factor. The issue is the fact that 5x as many calories were being exported to England before/after the famine, and perhaps 10x as many during the famine. This is what ruined Ireland. The Irish only consumed potatoes because they were denied every other former of sustenance, sustenance that was, in fact, locally abundant in enormous quantities throughout the famine.

    The metropole was fed with good beef and dairy - marginal Ireland suffered.

    All famines are doubtless partly due to social or political unwillingness to alleviate them to some extent and I am not seeking to deny every 'human factor' in the Irish or any other case. The distinction I am drawing is that some famines also have natural causes whereas some are predominantly man made. In the Irish case there was a potato disease, in Ethiopia there was a drought etc which precipitated the disaster. Those Jews who starved in Nazi concentration camps or the greatly man made Holodomor in Ukraine had no original diseases or droughts that of themselves started the hunger. Yes man can alleviate the worst effects of a famine if there is sufficient political and social will but where the crisis is specifically man made no such will can occur. Sure the exports of food from Ireland could have been stopped and perhaps should have been from a moral perspective if nothing else but the original cause was a disease that ruined the potato crop and not some social or political inclination to deliberately starve the Irish. There is a difference between not responding appropriately to a crisis and actually manufacturing it.

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