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Thread: American Democracy in Trouble.

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    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    American Democracy in Trouble.

    I saw this movie last night, and had a chat with the man himself, Greg Palast.
    The Best Democracy Money Can Buy:
    A Tale of Billionaires & Ballot Bandits

    There’s a lot that needs verifying, and a lot that might be considered distracting.

    But, if even 1/10th is true, American democracy is in deep, deep trouble.

    Not the GOPer-Dems can’t get along kind of trouble.
    Not the Russian interference in elections kind of trouble.
    Not the Orange-Baboon-in-the-White-House kind of trouble.

    Real trouble.

    The Election was Stolen – Here’s How…
    by Greg Palast, November 11, 2016

    Before a single vote was cast, the election was fixed by GOP and Trump operatives. Starting in 2013 – just as the Supreme Court gutted the Voting Rights Act – a coterie of Trump operatives, under the direction of Kris Kobach, Kansas Secretary of State, created a system to purge 1.1 million Americans of color from the voter rolls of GOP–controlled states. The system, called Crosscheck, is detailed in my Rolling Stone report, “The GOP’s Stealth War on Voters,” [8/24/2016].

    Crosscheck in action:
    Trump victory margin in Michigan: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _13,107
    Michigan Crosscheck purge list: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 449,922

    Trump victory margin in Arizona: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _85,257
    Arizona Crosscheck purge list: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _270,824

    Trump victory margin in North Carolina: _ _ _ _ _ _177,008
    North Carolina Crosscheck purge list: _ _ _ _ _ _ _589,393


    On Tuesday, we saw Crosscheck elect a Republican Senate and as President, Donald Trump. The electoral putsch was aided by nine other methods of attacking the right to vote of Black, Latino and Asian-American voters, methods detailed in my book and film, including “Caging,” “purging,” blocking legitimate registrations, and wrongly shunting millions to “provisional” ballots that will never be counted.

    Trump signaled the use of “Crosscheck” when he claimed the election is “rigged” because “people are voting many, many times.” His operative Kobach [DOR: Kris Kobach, Secretary of State for Kansas, ex-Kansas GOP Chair and counsel with the Immigration Law Reform Institute. He is largely responsible for voter disenfranchisement in multiple states.], who also advised Trump on building a wall on the southern border, devised a list of 7.2 million “potential” double voters—1.1 million of which were removed from the voter rolls by Tuesday. The list is loaded overwhelmingly with voters of color and the poor. Here's a sample of the list

    Those accused of criminal double voting include, for example, Donald Alexander Webster Jr. of Ohio who is accused of voting a second time in Virginia as Donald EUGENE Webster SR.

    No, not everyone on the list loses their vote. But this was not the only racially poisonous tactic that accounted for this purloined victory by Trump and GOP candidates. For example, in the swing state of North Carolina, it was reported that 6,700 Black folk lost their registrations because their registrations had been challenged by a group called Voter Integrity Project (VIP). VIP sent letters to households in Black communities “do not forward.” If the voter had moved within the same building, or somehow did not get their mail (e.g. if their name was not on a mail box), they were challenged as “ghost” voters. GOP voting officials happily complied with VIP with instant cancellation of registrations.

    The 6,700 identified in two counties were returned to the rolls through a lawsuit. However, there was not one mention in the press that VIP was also behind Crosscheck in North Carolina; nor that its leader, Col. Jay Delancy, whom I’ve tracked for years has previously used this vote thievery, known as “caging,” for years. Doubtless the caging game was wider and deeper than reported. And by the way, caging, as my Rolling Stone co-author, attorney Robert F. Kennedy Jr., tells me, is “a felony, it’s illegal, and punishable by high fines and even jail time.”

    There is still much investigation to do. For example, there are millions of “provisional” ballots, “spoiled” (invalidated) ballots and ballots rejected from the approximately 30 million mailed in. Unlike reporting in Britain, US media does not report the ballots that are rejected and tossed out—because, after all, as Joe Biden says, “Our elections are the envy of the world.”

    Only in Kazakhstan, Joe.

    While there is a great deal of work to do, much documentation still to analyze, we’ll have to pry it from partisan voting chiefs who stamp the scrub lists, Crosscheck lists and ballot records, “confidential.” But, the evidence already in our hands makes me sadly confident in saying, Jim Crow, not the voters, elected Mr. Trump.

    What about those exit polls?

    Exit polls are the standard by which the US State Department measures the honesty of foreign elections. Exit polling is, historically, deadly accurate. The bane of pre-election polling is that pollsters must adjust for the likelihood of a person voting. Exit polls solve the problem.

    But three times in US history, pollsters have had to publicly flagellate themselves for their “errors.” In 2000, exit polls gave Al Gore the win in Florida; in 2004, exit polls gave Kerry the win in Ohio, and now, in swing states, exit polls gave the presidency to Hillary Clinton.

    So how could these multi-million-dollar PhD-directed statisticians with decades of experience get exit polls so wrong? Answer: they didn’t. The polls in Florida in 2000 were accurate. That’s because exit pollsters can only ask, “How did you vote?” What they don’t ask, and can’t, is, “Was your vote counted.”

    In 2000, in Florida, GOP Secretary of State Katherine Harris officially rejected 181,173 ballots, as “spoiled” because their chads were hung and other nonsense excuses. Those ballots overwhelmingly were marked for Al Gore. The exit polls included those 181,173 people who thought they had voted – but their vote didn’t count. In other words, the exit polls accurately reflected whom the voters chose, not what Katherine Harris chose.

    In 2004, a similar number of votes were invalidated (including an enormous pile of “provisional” ballots) by Ohio’s GOP Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell. Again, the polls reflected that Kerry was the choice of 51% of the voters. But the exit polls were “wrong” because they didn’t reflect the ballots invalidated by Blackwell.

    Notably, two weeks after the 2004 US election, the US State Department refused the recognize the Ukraine election results because the official polls contradicted the exit polls.

    And here we go again. 2016: Hillary wins among those queried as they exit the polling station—yet Trump is declared winner in GOP-controlled swings states. And, once again, the expert pollsters are forced to apologize—when they should be screaming, “Fraud! Here’s the evidence the vote was fixed!”

    Now there’s a new trope to explain away the exit polls that gave Clinton the win. Supposedly, Trump voters were ashamed to say they voted for Trump. Really? ON WHAT PLANET? For Democracy Now! and Rolling Stone I was out in several swing states. In Ohio, yes, a Black voter may have been reluctant to state support for Trump. But a white voter in the exurbs of Dayton, where the Trump signs grew on lawns like weeds, and the pews of the evangelical mega churches were slathered with Trump and GOP brochures, risked getting spat on if they even whispered, “Hillary.”

    This country is violently divided, but in the end, there simply aren’t enough white guys to elect Trump nor a Republican Senate. The only way they could win was to eliminate the votes of non-white guys—and they did so by tossing Black provisional ballots into the dumpster, ID laws that turn away students—the list goes on. It’s a web of complex obstacles to voting by citizens of color topped by that lying spider, Crosscheck.


    http://www.gregpalast.com/election-stolen-heres/

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    DOR, please don't tell me you've gone from reliably partisan to full alt-left conspiracy crazy in the space of 4 months.

    Maybe it's time to step away from politics for a week.

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    The US needs a proper, fully independent voter registration process realistically. Every time I read about it, no matter from which political side, it's rather facepalm-worthy as it is.

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    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    DOR, please don't tell me you've gone from reliably partisan to full alt-left conspiracy crazy in the space of 4 months.

    Maybe it's time to step away from politics for a week.
    What part of
    There’s a lot that needs verifying, and a lot that might be considered distracting.

    But, if even 1/10th is true, American democracy is in deep, deep trouble.
    wasn't clear?

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    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    The US needs a proper, fully independent voter registration process realistically. Every time I read about it, no matter from which political side, it's rather facepalm-worthy as it is.
    Of course but it has been so endemic in many states, since the Civil War, to disenfranchise voters. Your logic is right on except voter registration is a subject that goes right off the rails once it is brought up like so many other things.

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    DOR

    Come to California, the State of California Constitution allows all the political parties to hold primaries and elect a candidate for say US Senate, but come the actual general election you could only vote for a Democrat and a Democrat. Yes even the second biggest party and all the other political couldn't qualify for the ballot in a national election. Sounds like legalized voter repression to me. What the Republican try to do sucks but Democrats do same.. Both parties same shit different flavor.

    Instead of the juvenile Republican do this and Democrats do that and the emotional over reaction to things that haven't happen. Behavior that would get you fired from a job private or public. The Democrats should look at the NC Governor Roy Cooper. http://www.npr.org/2016/12/22/506625...l-bathroom-law

    COOPER: No, look; I'm going to fight them toe-to-toe on issues we disagree with, that if there are areas where we can work together and we can find agreement, I will. And I think that's the kind of leadership that people want our elected officials to show.

    SHAPIRO: Over the last year, North Carolina has gained a national reputation as a place of political mud wrestling and chaos. Is that a reputation that you think you can turn around?

    That is leadership. If you work in the private and

    COOPER: Sure we can. We have an incredible foundation. We have some of the best universities in the country. We have incredible tourism.

    SHAPIRO: Sounds like you're saying just ignore the politics.

    COOPER: Yeah, you have to because we're a great state. There are good things going on. When people move here, they don't want to leave. What we have to do is fix the politics. And I'm ready to do that.

    The Governor is a leader.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    I saw this movie last night, and had a chat with the man himself, Greg Palast.
    The Best Democracy Money Can Buy:
    A Tale of Billionaires & Ballot Bandits

    There’s a lot that needs verifying, and a lot that might be considered distracting.

    But, if even 1/10th is true, American democracy is in deep, deep trouble.

    Not the GOPer-Dems can’t get along kind of trouble.
    Not the Russian interference in elections kind of trouble.
    Not the Orange-Baboon-in-the-White-House kind of trouble.

    Real trouble.

    The Election was Stolen – Here’s How…
    by Greg Palast, November 11, 2016

    Before a single vote was cast, the election was fixed by GOP and Trump operatives. Starting in 2013 – just as the Supreme Court gutted the Voting Rights Act – a coterie of Trump operatives, under the direction of Kris Kobach, Kansas Secretary of State, created a system to purge 1.1 million Americans of color from the voter rolls of GOP–controlled states. The system, called Crosscheck, is detailed in my Rolling Stone report, “The GOP’s Stealth War on Voters,” [8/24/2016].

    Crosscheck in action:
    Trump victory margin in Michigan: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _13,107
    Michigan Crosscheck purge list: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 449,922

    Trump victory margin in Arizona: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _85,257
    Arizona Crosscheck purge list: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _270,824

    Trump victory margin in North Carolina: _ _ _ _ _ _177,008
    North Carolina Crosscheck purge list: _ _ _ _ _ _ _589,393


    On Tuesday, we saw Crosscheck elect a Republican Senate and as President, Donald Trump. The electoral putsch was aided by nine other methods of attacking the right to vote of Black, Latino and Asian-American voters, methods detailed in my book and film, including “Caging,” “purging,” blocking legitimate registrations, and wrongly shunting millions to “provisional” ballots that will never be counted.

    Trump signaled the use of “Crosscheck” when he claimed the election is “rigged” because “people are voting many, many times.” His operative Kobach [DOR: Kris Kobach, Secretary of State for Kansas, ex-Kansas GOP Chair and counsel with the Immigration Law Reform Institute. He is largely responsible for voter disenfranchisement in multiple states.], who also advised Trump on building a wall on the southern border, devised a list of 7.2 million “potential” double voters—1.1 million of which were removed from the voter rolls by Tuesday. The list is loaded overwhelmingly with voters of color and the poor. Here's a sample of the list

    Those accused of criminal double voting include, for example, Donald Alexander Webster Jr. of Ohio who is accused of voting a second time in Virginia as Donald EUGENE Webster SR.

    No, not everyone on the list loses their vote. But this was not the only racially poisonous tactic that accounted for this purloined victory by Trump and GOP candidates. For example, in the swing state of North Carolina, it was reported that 6,700 Black folk lost their registrations because their registrations had been challenged by a group called Voter Integrity Project (VIP). VIP sent letters to households in Black communities “do not forward.” If the voter had moved within the same building, or somehow did not get their mail (e.g. if their name was not on a mail box), they were challenged as “ghost” voters. GOP voting officials happily complied with VIP with instant cancellation of registrations.

    The 6,700 identified in two counties were returned to the rolls through a lawsuit. However, there was not one mention in the press that VIP was also behind Crosscheck in North Carolina; nor that its leader, Col. Jay Delancy, whom I’ve tracked for years has previously used this vote thievery, known as “caging,” for years. Doubtless the caging game was wider and deeper than reported. And by the way, caging, as my Rolling Stone co-author, attorney Robert F. Kennedy Jr., tells me, is “a felony, it’s illegal, and punishable by high fines and even jail time.”

    There is still much investigation to do. For example, there are millions of “provisional” ballots, “spoiled” (invalidated) ballots and ballots rejected from the approximately 30 million mailed in. Unlike reporting in Britain, US media does not report the ballots that are rejected and tossed out—because, after all, as Joe Biden says, “Our elections are the envy of the world.”

    Only in Kazakhstan, Joe.

    All easily solved by requiring photo ID when voting.

    While there is a great deal of work to do, much documentation still to analyze, we’ll have to pry it from partisan voting chiefs who stamp the scrub lists, Crosscheck lists and ballot records, “confidential.” But, the evidence already in our hands makes me sadly confident in saying, Jim Crow, not the voters, elected Mr. Trump.

    What about those exit polls?
    I've been voting for decades, and never been polled upon exit.

    Exit polls are the standard by which the US State Department measures the honesty of foreign elections. Exit polling is, historically, deadly accurate. The bane of pre-election polling is that pollsters must adjust for the likelihood of a person voting. Exit polls solve the problem.
    Exit polls can only capture a snap shot of where they are, not where they are not.

    But three times in US history, pollsters have had to publicly flagellate themselves for their “errors.” In 2000, exit polls gave Al Gore the win in Florida; in 2004, exit polls gave Kerry the win in Ohio, and now, in swing states, exit polls gave the presidency to Hillary Clinton.

    So how could these multi-million-dollar PhD-directed statisticians with decades of experience get exit polls so wrong? Answer: they didn’t. The polls in Florida in 2000 were accurate. That’s because exit pollsters can only ask, “How did you vote?” What they don’t ask, and can’t, is, “Was your vote counted.”

    In 2000, in Florida, GOP Secretary of State Katherine Harris officially rejected 181,173 ballots, as “spoiled” because their chads were hung and other nonsense excuses. Those ballots overwhelmingly were marked for Al Gore. The exit polls included those 181,173 people who thought they had voted – but their vote didn’t count. In other words, the exit polls accurately reflected whom the voters chose, not what Katherine Harris chose.
    Bush won every single recount... The exist polls were wrong.

    In 2004, a similar number of votes were invalidated (including an enormous pile of “provisional” ballots) by Ohio’s GOP Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell. Again, the polls reflected that Kerry was the choice of 51% of the voters. But the exit polls were “wrong” because they didn’t reflect the ballots invalidated by Blackwell.
    Again, exist polls only represent a snap shot of where and when they are, not where they are not. Want an exit poll to favor a Dem, poll urban precincts. Want to favor a GOP candidate, hit the rural areas.

    Notably, two weeks after the 2004 US election, the US State Department refused the recognize the Ukraine election results because the official polls contradicted the exit polls.
    How robst was the exit polling operation in the Ukraine vs in the US?

    And here we go again. 2016: Hillary wins among those queried as they exit the polling station—yet Trump is declared winner in GOP-controlled swings states. And, once again, the expert pollsters are forced to apologize—when they should be screaming, “Fraud! Here’s the evidence the vote was fixed!”
    Some precincts in Detroit turned in more votes for Clinton than they had registered voters.

    Now there’s a new trope to explain away the exit polls that gave Clinton the win. Supposedly, Trump voters were ashamed to say they voted for Trump. Really? ON WHAT PLANET? For Democracy Now! and Rolling Stone I was out in several swing states. In Ohio, yes, a Black voter may have been reluctant to state support for Trump. But a white voter in the exurbs of Dayton, where the Trump signs grew on lawns like weeds, and the pews of the evangelical mega churches were slathered with Trump and GOP brochures, risked getting spat on if they even whispered, “Hillary.”

    This country is violently divided, but in the end, there simply aren’t enough white guys to elect Trump nor a Republican Senate. The only way they could win was to eliminate the votes of non-white guys—and they did so by tossing Black provisional ballots into the dumpster, ID laws that turn away students—the list goes on. It’s a web of complex obstacles to voting by citizens of color topped by that lying spider, Crosscheck.


    http://www.gregpalast.com/election-stolen-heres/
    Not enough white guys... White make up 70% of the voting population. To win, even if they get 100% of every person of colors' vote Liberals need to win just over a 5th of the white vote. In this election, Trump out performed Romney among minorities, who have voted in smaller numbers in every election snce 2008 and crushed Hillary among white women. Those three facts explain his win. He did not steal the election. Though once again, requiring an in-person ID presented vote or request for absentee ballot would solve all those problems.... well except for the more votes than voters. Peple really do need to go to prison over that one. However, since in happens in Dem areas, I don't see any action forthcoming. The Des still live by Daly's advice, vote early, vote often.

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    So Trump was right?
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    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    All easily solved by requiring photo ID when voting.



    I've been voting for decades, and never been polled upon exit.



    Exit polls can only capture a snap shot of where they are, not where they are not.



    Bush won every single recount... The exist polls were wrong.



    Again, exist polls only represent a snap shot of where and when they are, not where they are not. Want an exit poll to favor a Dem, poll urban precincts. Want to favor a GOP candidate, hit the rural areas.



    How robst was the exit polling operation in the Ukraine vs in the US?



    Some precincts in Detroit turned in more votes for Clinton than they had registered voters.



    Not enough white guys... White make up 70% of the voting population. To win, even if they get 100% of every person of colors' vote Liberals need to win just over a 5th of the white vote. In this election, Trump out performed Romney among minorities, who have voted in smaller numbers in every election snce 2008 and crushed Hillary among white women. Those three facts explain his win. He did not steal the election. Though once again, requiring an in-person ID presented vote or request for absentee ballot would solve all those problems.... well except for the more votes than voters. Peple really do need to go to prison over that one. However, since in happens in Dem areas, I don't see any action forthcoming. The Des still live by Daly's advice, vote early, vote often.
    Oh get real. How many registered voters turn out for elections? 100%...never. 60%...almost never. 55%...maybe. Apparently registered voters find it to be a big pain in the ass to get out to the polls to vote. If it is that big of a PIA then explain why anyone else would make it a goal to hit those polls. Explain why they would want to go out of their way to get an absentee ballot when even registered voters can't be bothered. Explain how tens of thousands, of these highly motivated voters according to you, decide to illegally vote. People being people, in this day and age, tend to find things that show a modicum of difficulty to be too difficult to bother with. If you can't click it and have Amazon deliver it then why bother.

  10. #10
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Dazed,

    I’ve been to California, the first time on September 15, 1957, at a hospital in Hollywood. My mom was there, too. I later lived in Los Angeles, San Diego, the Bay Area and a little sawmill town of 28 people (now about 50) called Little Valley, some 100 miles east of Redding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Valley,_California

    As a Californian (4th gen), I voted in 11 presidential elections and another 10 mid-term elections. I even voted in the sham gubernatorial “election” after Gray Davis was reelected.

    The fact that California law allows for open primaries is not something for which the Democratic Party should be blamed. Neither is the execution of those primary elections, which are not under party control but the responsibility of the California Secretary of State. Sure, the state has been dominated by the Democratic Party for a while, but that isn’t the same as the Democratic Party being responsible for how the primaries are conducted.

    = = = = =

    zraver,


    Photo ID? Got it covered.
    Require photo ID.
    Require that photo ID be issued by DMV.
    Close DMV offices (or restrict to a few hours a week) in “undesirable” neighborhoods.
    Problem solved. (That’s an actual example from the film, as you would know if you had seen it.)

    Exit polls?
    Gee, if you, personally, have never been surveyed after voting then every exit poll ever carried out must be faulty. Why didn’t I think of that? How come Fox and CNN haven’t exposed this obvious fraud? What are you smoking?

  11. #11
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Dazed,

    I’ve been to California, the first time on September 15, 1957, at a hospital in Hollywood. My mom was there, too. I later lived in Los Angeles, San Diego, the Bay Area and a little sawmill town of 28 people (now about 50) called Little Valley, some 100 miles east of Redding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Valley,_California

    As a Californian (4th gen), I voted in 11 presidential elections and another 10 mid-term elections. I even voted in the sham gubernatorial “election” after Gray Davis was reelected.

    The fact that California law allows for open primaries is not something for which the Democratic Party should be blamed. Neither is the execution of those primary elections, which are not under party control but the responsibility of the California Secretary of State. Sure, the state has been dominated by the Democratic Party for a while, but that isn’t the same as the Democratic Party being responsible for how the primaries are conducted.

    = = = = =

    zraver,


    Photo ID? Got it covered.
    Require photo ID.
    Require that photo ID be issued by DMV.
    Close DMV offices (or restrict to a few hours a week) in “undesirable” neighborhoods.
    Problem solved. (That’s an actual example from the film, as you would know if you had seen it.)

    Exit polls?
    Gee, if you, personally, have never been surveyed after voting then every exit poll ever carried out must be faulty. Why didn’t I think of that? How come Fox and CNN haven’t exposed this obvious fraud? What are you smoking?
    D,

    Are you saying that people will lose their driving licenses in the not suitable hoods? Don't you guys get your driving licenses in school?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

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  12. #12
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    D,

    Are you saying that people will lose their driving licenses in the not suitable hoods? Don't you guys get your driving licenses in school?
    Who said anything about losing an existing driving license?
    More, while I was fortunate enough to have Drivers Education (classroom) and Drivers Training (vehicles) in high school, not all school districts offer such luxuries. For example, cash-strapped school districts are quite likely to cut programs that are not part of the required core curriculum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    D,

    Are you saying that people will lose their driving licenses in the not suitable hoods? Don't you guys get your driving licenses in school?
    Also depends on the state. Here in VA drivers ed is offered in school but you still have to go to DMV for test and license application.

    Many private schools do not offer it
    “We had been hopelessly labouring to plough waste lands; to make nationality grow in a place full of the certainty of God… Among the tribes our creed could be only like the desert grass – a beautiful swift seeming of spring; which, after a day’s heat, fell dusty.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    The US needs a proper, fully independent voter registration process realistically. Every time I read about it, no matter from which political side, it's rather facepalm-worthy as it is.
    The US needs a proper, independent, Election commission with proper authority to conduct elections, period. Voter registration should be uniform across the country and not something that local officials dream up to suppress the local vote.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  15. #15
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    "Close DMV offices (or restrict to a few hours a week) in “undesirable” neighborhoods.
    Problem solved. (That’s an actual example from the film, as you would know if you had seen it.)"

    At the moment over 2/3 of the population of the US has a driving license. So, tell me, how is this "suppression" gonna happen?


    And yeah, like few hours a week gonna stop someone from getting the driving license. Because it's for voting only and not for everyday. Right.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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