Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 70

Thread: American Democracy in Trouble.

  1. #31
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Mar 05
    Location
    Panama City Fl
    Posts
    8,476
    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Your Snopes article confirms what I said, more votes than voters.
    RIF
    Guess you missed this.
    The discrepancy did not involve Detroit's recording more votes than registered voters, but rather precinct poll workers miscounting the number of people who voted.
    Its called Tourist Season. So why can't we shoot them?

  2. #32
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
    Join Date
    25 Aug 08
    Location
    Skopje, Macedonia
    Posts
    13,668
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    RIF
    Guess you missed this.
    It actually says that the machines counted different number from people. Why is that and is it a fraud, remains to be seen. 1 vote more or less is a signal of a fraud.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  3. #33
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
    Join Date
    25 Aug 08
    Location
    Skopje, Macedonia
    Posts
    13,668
    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Doktor,

    Do the math.

    Based on the wild-assed guesses we’re both putting up, and using the non-institutionalized labor force over the age of 20 (cause there ain’t no upper limit on voting, even after the age of 64):

    240 mn potential voters x 1/3rd with no license = 80 million.
    5% of that is 4 million potential votes.

    Now, imagine 100,000 of those voters are in Arizona, 115,000 in Florida, 15,000 in Michigan, 180,000 in North Carolina, and a smattering strung across other battleground states.

    That’s how it matters, aside from the fact that any low-life scum who would actively work to disenfranchise American citizens from exercising their right to vote deserves to be drawn and quartered…

    Final point: Why don’t “you guys” have “programs that help social mobility to go upwards”? Too cold-hearted?

    = = = = =

    zraver,

    Let me know when you've read the book or seen the film at the start of this entire thread.
    Then, and only then, will we have something useful to discuss.
    Until then, you're just denying everything without a shred of evidence to back up your point.

    Do the damn research.
    DOR,

    You have over 200mn licenses. I said 2/3 of the population.

    I also said "I am pretty sure you guys have programs that help social mobility to go upwards."
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  4. #34
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    05 Sep 06
    Posts
    4,026
    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    In India, the Election Commission officials go out of their way, including setting up camps in the remotest and most inaccessible parts of the country to ensure that every adult is registered to vote and that every registered voter has a polling booth nearby. There are booths set up for single voters.
    In Germany the 2013 federal election saw a voting booth that remained completely empty with zero votes cast locally. It serves a small island off the coast with 9 eligible voters (used to be more, around 12-13 - there's a couple more booths set up in the wider area, each for similar populations of under 20 people); of those 9 eligible voters 4 were travelling on election day and thus like the 4 others who voted chose to cast their vote by mail.

  5. #35
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    01 Nov 09
    Location
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Posts
    3,155
    Quote Originally Posted by zraver;1022567/



    I don't have to explain, the evidence that some precincts turned in more voters than voters is what it is. The fact that people have gone to jail for absentee voter fraud is what it is.

    Mr. Spicer that is the classic punt. Oh, sorry it isn't Mr. Spicer answering as to how a couple of hundred fake votes, spread around, will ever turn an election. Assuming there even is a couple of hundred proven votes in one election cycle.

  6. #36
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    01 Nov 09
    Location
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Posts
    3,155
    Quote Originally Posted by antimony;1022612/
    Why is it not a duty of the state to ensure everyone has the proper voter identification and the ability to cast their votes.
    That is not very Republican of you.

  7. #37
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Feb 08
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    3,926
    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    In Germany the 2013 federal election saw a voting booth that remained completely empty with zero votes cast locally. It serves a small island off the coast with 9 eligible voters (used to be more, around 12-13 - there's a couple more booths set up in the wider area, each for similar populations of under 20 people); of those 9 eligible voters 4 were travelling on election day and thus like the 4 others who voted chose to cast their vote by mail.
    It is the responsibility of the Election Commission to make the polling infrastructure available. It is the privilege of the people to exercise their polling right. The people are the masters of the governing class, not the other way around

    Take a look at this:
    https://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012...vileged-voter/

    In the far-flung corners of India, which has a voting population of more than 700 million, there are a few constituencies with a mere handful of voters. But only Banej has just one.

    Mahant Bharatdas, the only resident of Banej, Gujarat, casting his vote in this April 30, 2009, file photo.Courtesy of Haresh PandyaMahant Bharatdas, the only resident of Banej, Gujarat, casting his vote in this April 30, 2009, file photo.
    Whenever there are elections in Gujarat, the district government sets up a special polling booth, with a full staff of five, just for Mr. Bharatdas.
    This is dedication to democracy, and this is not what we have in the USA.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  8. #38
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    05 Sep 06
    Posts
    4,026
    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    It is the responsibility of the Election Commission to make the polling infrastructure available. It is the privilege of the people to exercise their polling right. The people are the masters of the governing class, not the other way around

    Take a look at this:
    https://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012...vileged-voter/
    This part:
    Though in the normal course polling hours extend through the day, the election team at Banej would be able to wind up and return the minute Darshandas has pressed the EVM button and his finger is marked with the indelible ink, said Pandey.
    wouldn't do over here. Even if 100% of eligible voters for a booth had already cast their vote (which quite often happens around noon in the above small constituencies) the booth would still remain open and staffed until the official closure of elections, i.e. throughout the day. During that last election the booth was set up and staffed from 8 am to 6 pm waiting whether the single person who hadn't cast their vote by mail already would opt to vote.

    Technical reason also being that someone with a transferrable voting registration - valid for a single vote at any one voting booth for that election - and ID in hand could always swim ashore at that island at 5:59 pm to cast their vote just in time before closure.

  9. #39
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
    Join Date
    25 Aug 08
    Location
    Skopje, Macedonia
    Posts
    13,668
    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Mr. Spicer that is the classic punt. Oh, sorry it isn't Mr. Spicer answering as to how a couple of hundred fake votes, spread around, will ever turn an election. Assuming there even is a couple of hundred proven votes in one election cycle.
    One ballot is a fair indication that the process is rigged. Just ask us the Balkan guys :wink: Nothing to see here attitude, does not solve the problem.

    For the record, I am not saying it is not just a human error, or that you guys somehow dropped several ladders and reached our lows. I am saying that if such occurrences repeat, there should be a systematic overhaul not to erode the trust in the process.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  10. #40
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,547
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    RIF
    Guess you missed this.
    oops, the word registered snuck in there on my OP. The rest of the time I clearly was referring to votes counted vs votes cast. More votes than voters. My apologies for the confusion.

  11. #41
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,547
    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post

    zraver,

    Let me know when you've read the book or seen the film at the start of this entire thread.
    Then, and only then, will we have something useful to discuss.
    Until then, you're just denying everything without a shred of evidence to back up your point.

    Do the damn research.
    I do my research thank you very much.

  12. #42
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Feb 08
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    3,926
    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    This part:
    Though in the normal course polling hours extend through the day, the election team at Banej would be able to wind up and return the minute Darshandas has pressed the EVM button and his finger is marked with the indelible ink, said Pandey.
    wouldn't do over here. Even if 100% of eligible voters for a booth had already cast their vote (which quite often happens around noon in the above small constituencies) the booth would still remain open and staffed until the official closure of elections, i.e. throughout the day. During that last election the booth was set up and staffed from 8 am to 6 pm waiting whether the single person who hadn't cast their vote by mail already would opt to vote.

    Technical reason also being that someone with a transferrable voting registration - valid for a single vote at any one voting booth for that election - and ID in hand could always swim ashore at that island at 5:59 pm to cast their vote just in time before closure.
    The technicalities can be worked, out, but the point is that the State (in this case the Election Commission) ensure that every citizen eligible to vote is actually registered and has the polling infrastructure at hand to vote. Voters have a dab of indelible ink applied on their finger, so that they do not get to vote again. Some people have found ways to remove that, but by and large that works.

    In the American context, the registration process can be as simple as running a query on citizens above 18 in the DL/ State ID/ SSN DB (as is done to select juries), auto register them and send them a ballot. The most accurate results would be on the SSN db (which in turn is cross referenced with the Citizenship DB, so that non citizen SSN holders are weeded out), cross reference with DL/ state ID DB and create a voter list out of that. Technically, not very hard to do.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  13. #43
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
    Join Date
    08 Mar 11
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,463
    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    DOR,

    You have over 200mn licenses. I said 2/3 of the population.

    I also said "I am pretty sure you guys have programs that help social mobility to go upwards."
    My bad.
    5-1/4 million, not 4 million.
    The rest holds true.

  14. #44
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
    Join Date
    08 Mar 11
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,463

    Neil Gorsuch Praised a Leading Republican Activist Behind Voter Suppression

    Gorsuch’s ties to Hans von Spakovksy suggest a hostility to voting rights.

    By Ari Berman, The Nation: https://www.thenation.com/article/in...ssion-efforts/

    Few people in the Republican Party have done more to limit voting rights than Hans von Spakovsky. He’s been instrumental in spreading the myth of widespread voter fraud and backing new restrictions to make it harder to vote.

    But it appears that von Spakovsky had an admirer in Neil Gorsuch, Donald Trump’s nominee for the Supreme Court, according to e-mails released to the Senate Judiciary Committee covering Gorsuch’s time working in the George W. Bush Administration.

    When President Bush nominated von Spakovksy to the Federal Election Commission in late 2005, Gorsuch wrote, “Good for Hans!”

    In another e-mail, when von Spakovksy said he was participating in a “Ballot Access and Voter Integrity Conference” at the Justice Department, Gorsuch wrote, “Sounds interesting. Glad to see you’re doing this. I may try to attend some of it.” Though the Justice Department was supposed to investigate both voting discrimination and voter fraud, the latter cause took priority and eventually led to Republican US Attorneys’ being wrongly fired from their jobs for refusing to prosecute fraud cases.

    At very least, the e-mails suggest Gorsuch was friendly with von Spakovksy. But it’s far more disturbing if Gorsuch shares Von Spakovsky’s views on voting rights. Given that we know almost nothing about Gorsuch’s views on the subject, this is something the Senate needs to press him on during confirmation hearings next week.

    Though the e-mails sound mundane, they’re much more important when you consider what was happening at the Justice Department during the time Gorsuch overlapped with von Spakovksy. In 2005–06 Gorsuch was principal deputy to the associate attorney general and von Spakosvky was special counsel to Brad Schlozman, the assistant attorney general for civil rights, who said he wanted to “gerrymander all of those crazy libs right out of the [voting] section.” It was a time when longtime civil-rights lawyers were pushed out of the Justice Department and the likes of Schlozman and von Spakovsky reversed the Civil Rights Division’s traditional role of safeguarding voting rights. When von Spakovsky was nominated to the FEC, six former lawyers in the voting section called him “the point person for undermining the Civil Rights Division’s mandate to protect voting rights.”

    In particular, von Spakovsky manipulated the process to approve Georgia’s strict voter-ID law in 2005, which was among the first of its kind. (I tell this story in great detail in my book Give Us the Ballot.) Von Spakovsky had been an advocate of such laws nationally and in Georgia specifically, where he was from, since the 1990s. “Requiring official picture identification such as a driver’s license with a current address would immediately cut down on a large amount of fraud,” he wrote in The Wall Street Journal in 1995. Two years later, he recommended, “Georgia should require all potential voters to present reliable photo identifications at their polling locations to help prevent impostors from voting.”

    Georgia’s voter-ID law was submitted to the Justice Department in 2005 under Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act, which required states like Georgia with a long history of voting discrimination to approve their voting changes with the federal government. The sponsor of the law, Republican Representative Sue Burmeister, told department lawyers, “If there are fewer black voters because of the bill, it will only be because there is less opportunity for fraud. She said when black voters in her precinct are not paid to vote, they do not go to the polls.”

    Her racially inflammatory assertions set off alarm bells among the team reviewing the submission, indicating that the law may have been enacted with a discriminatory purpose. Department lawyers feared the bill would disenfranchise thousands of voters.

    Atlanta’s Mayor, Shirley Franklin, told the story of her 84-year-old mother, who had recently moved from Philadelphia to Atlanta and could not obtain a new photo ID for voting. Her expired Pennsylvania driver’s license was rejected as sufficient documentation to obtain a Georgia ID card, and she was told to produce a copy of her birth certificate. But Franklin’s mother had been born at home in North Carolina and, like many elderly African Americans who grew up during Jim Crow, never had a birth certificate. After voting for 40 years, she would be disenfranchised by the new law.

    Citing the high number of voters without ID, the disparate rates of ID possession among blacks and whites, the number of DMV offices that did not issue IDs, the cost of the ID and the underlying documents needed to obtain an ID (ranging from $20 for an ID card to $210 for naturalization papers), four of five members of the Georgia review team urged that the law be rejected under Section 5. “While no single piece of data confirms that blacks will [be] disparately impacted compared to whites, the totality of evidence points to that conclusion,” they wrote in a 51-page analysis.

    Yet von Spakovsky placed a conservative lawyer on the review team, Joshua Rogers, who argued that the law should be approved. Von Spakovsky began secretly e-mailing Rogers copies of his articles, and arguments and analysis in favor of the Georgia ID law. He told him to password protect his computer so that no other attorneys on the team could see their correspondence. “They chose to put him on the case because of his political leanings and personal connection with von Spakovsky,” said Heather Moss, a member of the review team. Rogers’s dissenting memo, which was drafted with von Spakovsky’s input, became the basis for the Justice Department’s preclearance of the law.

    A year later, when von Spakovsky was nominated to the FEC, it was revealed that he published a law article praising voter-ID laws under the pseudonym “Publius” just a week after Georgia submitted its law for review. The article in the Texas Review of Law & Politics, a conservative legal journal, was titled “Securing the Integrity of American Elections: The Need for Change” and its author was identified as “an attorney who specializes in election issues.” Publius, aka von Spakovsky, wrote: “It is unfortunately true that in the great democracy in which we live, voter fraud has had a long and studied role in our elections,” the article began. It continued: “putting security measures in place— such as requiring identification when voting— does not disenfranchise voters and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.”

    DOJ ethics guidelines clearly stated that von Spakovsky, given his longstanding advocacy for voter-ID laws and the strong viewpoints in his then-anonymous article, should have recused himself from consideration of Georgia’s law. Indeed, his ethical lapses and deceptive support for new voting restrictions were a major reason Senate Democrats blocked his nomination to the FEC and President Bush was forced to give him a recess appointment. (Then-Senator Barack Obama put a hold on von Spakovsky’s nomination and he withdrew in 2008, joining the Heritage Foundation, which has championed Gorsuch’s nomination.)

    But that’s not all. In addition to the FEC, Von Spakovsky was also appointed to the advisory board of the Election Assistance Commission, created by the Help America Vote Act to analyze the country’s election problems. The commission hired two well- respected experts, Republican Job Serebrov and Democrat Tova Wang, to produce a comprehensive study on voter fraud. “There is widespread but not unanimous agreement that there is little polling place fraud, or at least much less than is claimed, including voter impersonation, ‘dead’ voters, non-citizen voting and felon voters,” a draft of the report stated. After von Spakovsky complained to the commission’s GOP leadership, the wording in the final report was changed to, “There is a great deal of debate on the pervasiveness of fraud.”

    More recently, von Spakovsky has argued against that the Voting Rights Act was “constitutionally dubious at the time of its enactment” and praised Trump’s promised investigation into voter fraud, which has been widely panned by Democrats and Republicans. “The real problem in our election system is that we don’t really know to what extent President Trump’s claim is true because we have an election system that is based on the honor system,” he wrote with John Fund after Trump said with no evidence that 3 million to 5 million people voted illegally.

    Given that von Spakovsky hailed Gorsuch as “the perfect pick for Trump,” it’s safe to assume he believes that the Supreme Court nominee shares his views. The Senate needs to aggressively question Gorsuch to see if that’s the case.

    Gorsuch has already cited Justice Antonin Scalia as a role model, who said the Voting Rights Act had led to a “perpetuation of racial entitlement.” Gorsuch, if confirmed, could be the deciding vote on whether to weaken the remaining sections of the VRA and whether to uphold discriminatory voter-ID laws and redistricting plans from states like North Carolina and Texas. In many ways, the fate of voting rights in the United States hangs on this nomination.

  15. #45
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Jan 06
    Location
    DPRK, Demokratik People's Republik of Kalifornia
    Posts
    23,782
    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    The US needs a proper, fully independent voter registration process realistically. Every time I read about it, no matter from which political side, it's rather facepalm-worthy as it is.
    You mean getting a government issued photo ID in order to register and then pick up a ballot to vote? Why....that's racist!!!!

    Edit: Remember who is always against voter ID law every time it's brought up.

    http://abc7.com/politics/san-pedro-m...-home/1588822/

    Hmmmm....
    Last edited by gunnut; 08 Apr 17, at 00:41.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. American democracy is doomed
    By astralis in forum American Politics & Economy
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 06 Mar 15,, 15:52
  2. New Drawing - New Trouble?
    By Amled in forum International Economy
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 18 Apr 06,, 00:37
  3. More USN trouble...
    By rickusn in forum Naval Warfare
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04 Mar 06,, 16:04
  4. Trouble in France?
    By TopHatter in forum International Economy
    Replies: 142
    Last Post: 13 Nov 05,, 14:34
  5. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 24 Nov 04,, 18:07

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •