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Thread: American Democracy in Trouble.

  1. #16
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    The US needs a proper, independent, Election commission with proper authority to conduct elections, period. Voter registration should be uniform across the country and not something that local officials dream up to suppress the local vote.
    Why are local officials anyhow more restrictive than the Feds officials? Who will be in charge for the local elections?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  2. #17
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Why are local officials anyhow more restrictive than the Feds officials?
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.9c965e0ac38f
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.0410f342f6f3

    Voter registration, voting hours, locations are left at the mercy of local officials and they can manipulate them to disenfranchise the voter groups they do not like

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Who will be in charge for the local elections?
    State officials can handle them but the rules and regulations have to be communicated well in advance and cannot change.

    Also, why should we not have proactive voter registration, like they have back in India? That way, we ensure voter participation, which, of course, the Republicans loathe
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Oh get real. How many registered voters turn out for elections? 100%...never. 60%...almost never. 55%...maybe.
    Yet some precincts turn in more votes than voters...


    Apparently registered voters find it to be a big pain in the ass to get out to the polls to vote.
    We make registering to vote exceedingly easy, so even people who don't care are often registered. The people who do care turn out.


    If it is that big of a PIA then explain why anyone else would make it a goal to hit those polls. Explain why they would want to go out of their way to get an absentee ballot when even registered voters can't be bothered. Explain how tens of thousands, of these highly motivated voters according to you, decide to illegally vote. People being people, in this day and age, tend to find things that show a modicum of difficulty to be too difficult to bother with. If you can't click it and have Amazon deliver it then why bother.
    I don't have to explain, the evidence that some precincts turned in more voters than voters is what it is. The fact that people have gone to jail for absentee voter fraud is what it is.

    DOR,

    The whole, I can't get ID meme is more than a bit over done. How did you buy your beer, get the utilities turned on, cash your check, get a credit card or bank account, get into an R rated movie, register and drive your car, pay your property taxes, get a mortgage or rental agreement... There is not a single state that only permits drivers licesnes and no other ID to be used.

    Antimony, per the Constitution, elections are state not federal controlled. You would need a constitutional amendment to change that.

  4. #19
    Senior Contributor chakos's Avatar
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    Do as the Aussies do; compulsory voting.

    Well it's compulsory to turn up and get your name signed off, you can then go straight home or draw a giant penis on the election ballot (the percentage that do so was so significant that the Australian Electoral Committee made a ruling that you can draw a penis on the ballot and as long as you fill it out correctly it would be accepted).

    Jokes aside it means everybody gets a say, it also pushes policy to the middle as parties can just ignore their extreme wings because who else are they going to vote for as our system also relies on preferences to distill votes down to the ultimate winner.
    The best part of repentance is the sin

  5. #20
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Yet some precincts turn in more votes than voters...




    I don't have to explain, the evidence that some precincts turned in more voters than voters is what it is.
    Or not

    http://www.snopes.com/more-votes-tha...rs-in-detroit/
    Its called Tourist Season. So why can't we shoot them?

  6. #21
    Senior Contributor Monash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chakos View Post
    Do as the Aussies do; compulsory voting.

    Jokes aside it means everybody gets a say, it also pushes policy to the middle as parties can just ignore their extreme wings because who else are they going to vote for as our system also relies on preferences to distill votes down to the ultimate winner.
    And good luck convincing Americans to accept compulsory voting.

  7. #22
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    "Close DMV offices (or restrict to a few hours a week) in “undesirable” neighborhoods.
    Problem solved. (That’s an actual example from the film, as you would know if you had seen it.)"

    At the moment over 2/3 of the population of the US has a driving license. So, tell me, how is this "suppression" gonna happen?


    And yeah, like few hours a week gonna stop someone from getting the driving license. Because it's for voting only and not for everyday. Right.

    First, it isn't an effort to stop 2/3rds of the people from voting; it's an effort to make it "too much trouble" for (up to) 1/3rd to vote. Second, if you're working on an hourly wage job that's a long bus ride away, and maybe involves a split shift, yeah, a few hours a week is A Big Deal.

    Ever been poor, Doktor?
    Life gets very real, very fast.

  8. #23
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Antimony, per the Constitution, elections are state not federal controlled. You would need a constitutional amendment to change that.
    I am quite aware of that. Just because it is currently enshrined in the constitution does not make it right. Quite honestly, the ability to participate in the American democracy is shamefully inadequate. Why should voters across the country have different requirements or eligibility to vote? Why is it not a duty of the state to ensure everyone has the proper voter identification and the ability to cast their votes.

    In India, the Election Commission officials go out of their way, including setting up camps in the remotest and most inaccessible parts of the country to ensure that every adult is registered to vote and that every registered voter has a polling booth nearby. There are booths set up for single voters. The fact that we do not have the same level of commitment towards voter participation in this country is shameful.

    Note that I am not against voter identification, in fact support it strongly (just like I am strongly for Universal background checks for gun ownership). Voter id, done the right way by an independent non partisan authority in a proactive and impartial manner, increases voter participation rather than curbing it.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  9. #24
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post
    And good luck convincing Americans to accept compulsory voting.
    I can live with compulsory or at least proactive registration
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  10. #25
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Yet some precincts turn in more votes than voters...




    We make registering to vote exceedingly easy, so even people who don't care are often registered. The people who do care turn out.




    I don't have to explain, the evidence that some precincts turned in more voters than voters is what it is. The fact that people have gone to jail for absentee voter fraud is what it is.

    DOR,

    The whole, I can't get ID meme is more than a bit over done. How did you buy your beer, get the utilities turned on, cash your check, get a credit card or bank account, get into an R rated movie, register and drive your car, pay your property taxes, get a mortgage or rental agreement... There is not a single state that only permits drivers licesnes and no other ID to be used.

    Antimony, per the Constitution, elections are state not federal controlled. You would need a constitutional amendment to change that.

    zraver,

    Remind me again how many voting fraud cases there were out of the last, oh say one billion votes cast? Never mind, I found it:
    A comprehensive investigation of voter impersonation finds 31 credible incidents out of one billion ballots cast”,
    by Justin Levitt, Washington Post, August 6, 2014
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.233c9ebe0dc7

    So, it surprises you that huge number of American citizens are unbanked? That they have to pay cash and get their paychecks cashed at the store?
    You might just want to get out a bit more…

  11. #26
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    First, it isn't an effort to stop 2/3rds of the people from voting; it's an effort to make it "too much trouble" for (up to) 1/3rd to vote. Second, if you're working on an hourly wage job that's a long bus ride away, and maybe involves a split shift, yeah, a few hours a week is A Big Deal.

    Ever been poor, Doktor?
    Life gets very real, very fast.
    I don't follow. 2/3 have riving license and 15-64 y/o comprise 60% of the population.

    Let me see, you have to be, not in the 2/3 of the total population nor in the 95+% of the adults with a DL to be very poor, with split jobs, to not be able to vote.
    A) How is this gonna change the outcome?
    B) Can't this somehow be your own fault? I am pretty sure you guys have programs that help social mobility to go upwards.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    I am quite aware of that. Just because it is currently enshrined in the constitution does not make it right. Quite honestly, the ability to participate in the American democracy is shamefully inadequate.
    The way our tax system is structured I would say its too open. far too many voters are zero liability. They don;t have to pay for any programs put into place by the people they vote for. Voters should be liable for the votes they cast.Now if everyone had skin in the game, then universal registration would be a lot more palatable.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post

    Your Snopes article confirms what I said, more votes than voters.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    zraver,

    Remind me again how many voting fraud cases there were out of the last, oh say one billion votes cast? Never mind, I found it:
    A comprehensive investigation of voter impersonation finds 31 credible incidents out of one billion ballots cast”,
    by Justin Levitt, Washington Post, August 6, 2014
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.233c9ebe0dc7

    So, it surprises you that huge number of American citizens are unbanked? That they have to pay cash and get their paychecks cashed at the store?
    You might just want to get out a bit more…
    Cases brought to trial does not equal the total of offenses. Not to mention your link didn't look at the way the absentee ballot, or multi-state voting is abused.

  15. #30
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    I don't follow. 2/3 have riving license and 15-64 y/o comprise 60% of the population.

    Let me see, you have to be, not in the 2/3 of the total population nor in the 95+% of the adults with a DL to be very poor, with split jobs, to not be able to vote.
    A) How is this gonna change the outcome?
    B) Can't this somehow be your own fault? I am pretty sure you guys have programs that help social mobility to go upwards.
    Doktor,

    Do the math.

    Based on the wild-assed guesses we’re both putting up, and using the non-institutionalized labor force over the age of 20 (cause there ain’t no upper limit on voting, even after the age of 64):

    240 mn potential voters x 1/3rd with no license = 80 million.
    5% of that is 4 million potential votes.

    Now, imagine 100,000 of those voters are in Arizona, 115,000 in Florida, 15,000 in Michigan, 180,000 in North Carolina, and a smattering strung across other battleground states.

    That’s how it matters, aside from the fact that any low-life scum who would actively work to disenfranchise American citizens from exercising their right to vote deserves to be drawn and quartered…

    Final point: Why don’t “you guys” have “programs that help social mobility to go upwards”? Too cold-hearted?

    = = = = =

    zraver,

    Let me know when you've read the book or seen the film at the start of this entire thread.
    Then, and only then, will we have something useful to discuss.
    Until then, you're just denying everything without a shred of evidence to back up your point.

    Do the damn research.

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