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Thread: Free Speech on College Campuses

  1. #46
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    I don't need to live on a farm to know that occasionally it smells like bullshit. Berkeley and Cal are being sued for collusion to stop conservative speakers. CAL students did block white students from the entrance to the campus. Some of the black bloc rioters were in fact Cal students.

    Is there some reason why the initial "CAL students" is distinct from "white students"? Would it be because "white students" are not CAL students?

    And, while you may be 100% correct that "Some of the black bloc rioters were in fact Cal students," there is also a high probability that those rioters were also ... right-handed. And, equally relevant.

    Back to square one: because something happens in Berkeley doesn't mean it is endorsed by, or on behalf of, or representative of the University of California.

  2. #47
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    How dear you comment about Berkeley from London?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

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  3. #48
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    TH,



    you're right in that there's definitely changes that previous generations did not have to deal with-- but that's been a truism in the last two hundred years. the jump between horse messenger and telegraph was an enormous one, far bigger than the difference between the telegraph/phone/internet, for instance.

    moreover, while there's some aspects of technology that replace basic human interactions or functions, there are others where it either enhances or augments those same interactions/functions.

    taking ironduke's assertion that "people used to have intricate, well-developed mental mapping systems"-- well, no, people used to just get -lost-. :-)

    so yeah, we mock "safe spaces, trigger words, and microaggressions", but on the other hand, pretty sure those hippies were more than equal to living up to the "ridiculousness" standard. or, for that matter, the oh-so-grungy Gen-Xers...:-)

    trying to assert broad sociological effects from continually ongoing technological changes doesn't really work well. it's actually pretty funny to see increasing numbers of my particular generational cohort (early 1980s) go through their own get-off-my-lawn screeds as they try to differentiate themselves from younger millennials or whatever the next generation is called.
    Bahhhhhh, agree and disagree. I agree because most people highlight differences that don't matter in the slightest. Your article from the older Millennial is a great example: really, you don't use snapchat? Really, you use email more? Really, you don't like Full House?

    It's like saying "Gen X liked Friends, Millennials like How I Met Your Mother, they are totally different!" - Yeah, no.

    I also think "technology" as a whole doesn't really shift anything. The social difference between a walk-man and an IPod is pretty trivial, IMO.

    The big shifts are cultural and social institutions. Millennials have absolutely grown up with social media dictating most of their lives, in a way older generations did not. FB was fully rolled out by, what, 2004? Myspace existed before that. This woman telling me she slept with a boyband member? Yeah, I think that's a pretty big sea-change. I think those are bigger impacts on the world than Napster or AOL chatrooms.

    Not sure we can hand-wave prior generations, either. Ike's generation doesn't look much like Lincoln's generation to me. My parent's generation doesn't look much like the Flapper Generation. Obviously I am not a generational expert that far back, but the tech seems to play a huge role in the differences between these generations. A lot of the behavior we're interested in, though, comes from other factors: I think Florida recounts and 9/11 and Obama plays a larger role in our current polarization than social media specifically, and newspapers could either be polarizing or moderating forces between the late 19th and mid-20th centuries.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  4. #49
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    i see multi-generational -trends-, vice trying to shoehorn one generation as THE Generation Where Everything Changed and Went to Hell.

    technology influences the cultural and social institutional change, but isn't the primary driver.

    think Florida recounts and 9/11 and Obama plays a larger role in our current polarization than social media specifically,
    completely agree. although Bush as a negative example drove the social change much more than Obama did-- his administration, plus the Great Recession afterwards, is why Millennials tack left.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    TH,
    you're right in that there's definitely changes that previous generations did not have to deal with-- but that's been a truism in the last two hundred years. the jump between horse messenger and telegraph was an enormous one, far bigger than the difference between the telegraph/phone/internet, for instance.
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and quote my favorite YouTube educator's video on the effect that automation will have on jobs: "You may think we've been here before, but we haven't. This time is different".

    The invention of the telegraph was yuuuge, no question about it. However it didn't put a telegraph in the pocket or on the desk top of the vast majority of grade schoolers, even those whose parents were of the most modest means....a pocket telegraph that could reach nearly every corner of the globe just as easily as it did the next town over.

    This time is most definitely different.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Is there some reason why the initial "CAL students" is distinct from "white students"? Would it be because "white students" are not CAL students?

    And, while you may be 100% correct that "Some of the black bloc rioters were in fact Cal students," there is also a high probability that those rioters were also ... right-handed. And, equally relevant.

    Back to square one: because something happens in Berkeley doesn't mean it is endorsed by, or on behalf of, or representative of the University of California.
    Yeah there is a reason, I forgot to start the sentence with the word minority.

    Black Bloc members also being students at Cal means a lot more than handedness. Lefthanders are not trying to force righthanders out of public spaces or censor them. Black Bloc members and/or leftist CAL students are using violence to craft a political narrative.

    http://reason.com/blog/2016/10/26/vi...rs-built-a-hum

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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and quote my favorite YouTube educator's video on the effect that automation will have on jobs: "You may think we've been here before, but we haven't. This time is different".

    The invention of the telegraph was yuuuge, no question about it. However it didn't put a telegraph in the pocket or on the desk top of the vast majority of grade schoolers, even those whose parents were of the most modest means....a pocket telegraph that could reach nearly every corner of the globe just as easily as it did the next town over.

    This time is most definitely different.
    The Smart Phone is up there with mastery of fire, domestication of the dog, cultivation and written language as true turning point events.

  8. #53
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    Bahhhhhh, agree and disagree. I agree because most people highlight differences that don't matter in the slightest. Your article from the older Millennial is a great example: really, you don't use snapchat? Really, you use email more? Really, you don't like Full House?

    It's like saying "Gen X liked Friends, Millennials like How I Met Your Mother, they are totally different!" - Yeah, no.

    I also think "technology" as a whole doesn't really shift anything. The social difference between a walk-man and an IPod is pretty trivial, IMO.

    The big shifts are cultural and social institutions. Millennials have absolutely grown up with social media dictating most of their lives, in a way older generations did not. FB was fully rolled out by, what, 2004? Myspace existed before that. This woman telling me she slept with a boyband member? Yeah, I think that's a pretty big sea-change. I think those are bigger impacts on the world than Napster or AOL chatrooms.

    Not sure we can hand-wave prior generations, either. Ike's generation doesn't look much like Lincoln's generation to me. My parent's generation doesn't look much like the Flapper Generation. Obviously I am not a generational expert that far back, but the tech seems to play a huge role in the differences between these generations. A lot of the behavior we're interested in, though, comes from other factors: I think Florida recounts and 9/11 and Obama plays a larger role in our current polarization than social media specifically, and newspapers could either be polarizing or moderating forces between the late 19th and mid-20th centuries.
    That's a strawman you've put up there. It's a mischaracterization of what I said.

    The brain is incredibly plastic. It will contract or expand areas depending on the degree to which they are used. It's the most energy-intensive organ in the body, and it strives toward efficiency depending on the needs of the individual in question. The taxicab driver who has never used GPS has an area of the brain that may be 10-20x larger and more developed due to the fact that they drive cabs for 1/3 to 1/2 of their waking hours. The brain needs this capability, so it creates it, as the livelihood and well-being of the taxicab driver absolutely depends on it, and the taxicab driver's brain responds accordingly to give him the mental tools to do his job. It is not simply rote memorization - it is a fundamental biological adaptation taking place on a granular, individual level within a single lifetime.

    Likewise with GPS telling people how to get everywhere - mental mapping no longer occurs except on the most basic, rudimentary level - everything is a blur and the only thing that really exists to a driver following GPS is the starting point and the destination. The GPS is in effect automating the process - the human mind no longer needs to remember landmarks, directions, landscapes, or anything else. If a human is completely reliant on GPS - the brain doesn't develop much capability to mentally map the territory the person is traveling through. Enough studies have been done to prove that this area of the brain is many times larger in a taxicab driver - which proves plasticity within a single lifetime, that is not dependent on genetics.

    When dogs replaced humans in several different areas - humans no longer needed certain abilities as dogs had were already far superior to the human. Isolated populations of people who have never had dogs have far closer to the archaic human's sense of smell than modern humans do. Sense of smell being considered by evolutionary biologists to be one of them. Modern human are thought to have only 5-10% of the ability of archaic Homo Sapiens. Neil deGrasse Tyson made a point about this in the new Cosmos, along with many others who are esteemed experts in their fields, and he and they often have a pretty good idea what they're talking about. The smell capacity of humans likely also regressed due to increasing safety in food supply - a good sense of smell was absolutely vital in helping humans to determine which foods were safe to eat, and which would kill you.

    There are hundreds of other areas these changes are likely occurring it - and the faster technology develops, I believe this causes more rapid, stranger, and bizarre changes in the human mind, and that we have yet to fully consider the implications. The sense of smell and mental mapping of environment are just two examples for which there is a large amount of physical evidence for. There are other changes for which there are evidence of, and other changes, and it has not yet occurred to anybody what these changes might even be, and they are yet undetected.

    This effect is observed in reverse when previously domesticated animals become feral and wild once more - old instincts and capabilities return. The southern razorback established itself as a wild species with archaic boar instincts and capabilities not seen in the domesticated pigs they descend from. Thousands of years of domestication with the accompanying changes were lost in just a few generations when several pigs managed to escape, and somehow survive outside of a domesticated environment. So, these changes can also happen in reverse. Humans could theoretically regress to archaic Homo Sapiens mental capabilities/lack of capabilities if the circumstances were to exist.

    The question is - with the technological development of mankind these last 100 centuries, and the ever-increasing rate at which it is occurring - what other areas and abilities are being lost wholesale among entire populations? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? I think the evidence is convincing enough - it is happening.

    Talking about Walkmans and iPods - the timeline might seem like an eternity to you, and it may even seem somehow cogent and relevant counterpoint, but it is neither.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 03 May 17, at 03:49.

  9. #54
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Yeah there is a reason, I forgot to start the sentence with the word minority.

    Black Bloc members also being students at Cal means a lot more than handedness. Lefthanders are not trying to force righthanders out of public spaces or censor them. Black Bloc members and/or leftist CAL students are using violence to craft a political narrative.

    http://reason.com/blog/2016/10/26/vi...rs-built-a-hum
    Obviously you are going to believe whatever you want to believe irrespective of solid facts. That's ok as I am sure some people believe the world is still flat you will always believe UCB is a leftist den.

    I don't care as I am talking to the other thousand people who read this every day. If UCB is a leftist den then so is UCLA, UCSD, UCR, UCI, UCM, UCSB, UCSC, UCD and UCSF as they all share the exact same applicant (gene) pool as decided by the Regents. On the other hand if those eight aren't leftists dens then conversely neither is UCB.

    One final note about this whole event. Our long time local investigative reporter learned that the people on the right wearing their helmets, who came to support Coulter, Trump or whoever, were actually bused in from as far south as Fresno and north from Eureka. Doesn't sound so spontaneous to me. Yet what do I know as I have only lived in the area for 45 years and must be blind compared to you.

    Oh, and looking at some of those May Day pictures with the anarchists dressed in black, around the world, really brought home the fact that UCB students are an incredibly mobile group. During finals no less. Damn!

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Our long time local investigative reporter learned that the people on the right wearing their helmets, who came to support Coulter, Trump or whoever, were actually bused in from as far south as Fresno and north from Eureka. Doesn't sound so spontaneous to me.
    You need a new reporter. The plan for conservatives to mass was discussed for weeks across new media, as it was felt the mass assaults on conservatives during Milo Yianopolis' visit hadn't been properly addressed by your local constabulary. In other words your local reporter was reporting something that was openly reported for weeks prior.
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  11. #56
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    How dear you comment about Berkeley from London?
    How many years did you live in Berkeley?

  12. #57
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Yeah there is a reason, I forgot to start the sentence with the word minority.

    Black Bloc members also being students at Cal means a lot more than handedness. Lefthanders are not trying to force righthanders out of public spaces or censor them. Black Bloc members and/or leftist CAL students are using violence to craft a political narrative.

    http://reason.com/blog/2016/10/26/vi...rs-built-a-hum
    I am in awe of anyone who can tell the difference between a Cal student walking down the street or throwing rocks, and anyone else doing the same thing..
    Just like my niece was, and my dad, and my two uncles, and of course Grandma.
    Bears one and all.
    And, we are all in awe of your insights.

  13. #58
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    How many years did you live in Berkeley?
    When was the last time you where there? Jeez...
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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    Dear Berkeley: Even Ann Coulter deserves free speech

    Are we living in an alternate reality, one in which Bill Maher and Bernie Sanders are sticking up for Ann Coulter?

    What could have caused this rip in the space-time continuum? The so-called birthplace of the free speech movement, the University of California at Berkeley, has once again engaged in liberal censorship, this time of Ann Coulter, using the fear of violence as cover to suppress a voice it did not like.

    Conservative columnist Ann Coulter was invited to speak at UC Berkeley by the Berkeley College Republicans. Given recent violence against conservative speakers in Berkeley, the college cancelled the speech. Coulter, to her credit, offered suggestions as to how to better deal with any problems -- to expel any students engaging in violence or trying to stop the speech from happening. That solution apparently was not good enough for UC Berkeley, which instead decided to reschedule the talk, but on a date when there would be no students on campus.

    I despise Ann Coulter. But, with everything I hold dear as an American, I also believe in what Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. wrote: "[T]he ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas -- that the best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market, and that truth is the only ground upon which their wishes safely can be carried out. That at any rate is the theory of our Constitution."

    Berkeley should be the epicenter of the marketplace of ideas. Unfortunately, it has become the most intolerant place in America. I would feel more comfortable preaching for Sharia law in rural Mississippi than I would feel challenging the wage gap theory or speaking out against anti-Asian discrimination in admissions at Berkeley. In Mississippi, I would likely be ignored. Jeered at worst. In Berkeley, if you do not adhere to the Leftist orthodoxy, your speech is branded "hate speech," and out come the shock troops to physically attack you or anyone who wants to listen to you.


    continued... http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/24/opinio...dazza-opinion/

  15. #60
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    When was the last time you where there? Jeez...
    Christmas, 2016.

    And, you?

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