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Thread: Free Speech on College Campuses

  1. #31
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    We are better than post #23, too.
    You're referring to my "Amen" ?

  2. #32
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Like I said your opinion is worthless repetition. Now when you arrive in Berkeley and obtain first hand information then you might have something. You seem like a smart guy but you make me wonder. I don't live in Arkansas and consequently would never voice an opinion about what goes on in the state. I'm smart enough to realize that yet you feel you have more knowledge regarding Berkeley than a person who has lived within 15 miles of it for 45 years.
    He voices his opinion based on what he reads and sees in media. Is it a bad thing? Dang, we should all post just for what happens around us.

    I can see why you keep repeating it is not the same as a first hand experience. Sure it's not.
    A lot of things happened here and when I saw them on the news my reaction was "where the hell am I". But, that's how things are.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  3. #33
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    You're referring to my "Amen" ?
    No, it is deleted now, so your post took the position.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Like I said your opinion is worthless repetition. Now when you arrive in Berkeley and obtain first hand information then you might have something. You seem like a smart guy but you make me wonder. I don't live in Arkansas and consequently would never voice an opinion about what goes on in the state. I'm smart enough to realize that yet you feel you have more knowledge regarding Berkeley than a person who has lived within 15 miles of it for 45 years.
    TBM, that's a VERY limiting set of criteria. Sometimes somebody can be right on top of the situation and not see the forest for the trees. Stepping back and looking at something from afar can be just as useful as having boots on the ground. There's no reason to question Zraver's intelligence either.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  5. #35
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    Berkeley praises police for keeping peace at Coulter rallies

    BERKELEY, Calif. (AP) — Berkeley officials declared their handling of protests over Ann Coulter's canceled appearance a success thanks to a massive police presence that ensured the city did not become a "fight club," the mayor said Friday.

    Hundreds of Coulter's supporters gathered in a downtown park Thursday after the University of California, Berkeley, nixed a speech by the conservative commentator. Many of them came dressed for conflict, wearing flak jackets, ballistic helmets adorned with pro-President Donald Trump stickers and other protective gear.

    There were tense shouting matches but no major confrontations between Coulter's supporters and opponents, who held a nearby counter-rally. The two sides were separated by a wall of riot police, while hundreds of other officers were deployed around the city and campus.

    "Having a large police presence definitely helped yesterday," Berkeley Mayor Jesse Arreguin told San Francisco TV station KTVU on Friday. "What we saw was people in the park speaking out, there were lots of discussions and debates that happened, and that's what we wanted to facilitate.

    "But nobody crossed the line to violence, and that's what we wanted. We don't want to turn our city into a fight club," the mayor said.

    Police and officials, both for the city and its prominent public university, have faced criticism for failing to keep the peace at several political rallies in recent months that have erupted in violence.

    This time, police said they took a new approach, including a large deployment of visible officers and a low tolerance for violence. Seven people were arrested, including one for obstructing an officer and wearing a mask to evade police, and another for possessing a knife.

    Officers on campus also took selfies with students to try to lighten the mood.

    Neither the university nor the police have disclosed how many officers were involved, but UC Berkeley spokesman Dan Mogulof said it had backup from a "wide range" of law enforcement agencies.

    It is not clear how much the security cost, but Arreguin said the university footed the bill.

    "This was a university event, they invited Ann Coulter and so they took on the responsibility of paying for, calling in mutual aid and helping coordinate with the city the mutual response," Arreguin said.

    Coulter was invited to speak by campus Republicans, who also had invited right-wing provocateur Milo Yiannopoulous to speak in February. That event was canceled because of violent protests by a left-wing extremist group that smashed windows on campus and set fires outside the student union.

    Arreguin also attributed Friday's peaceful rallies to the fact that the "very extremist left-wing groups didn't really show up," as had been expected.

    Berkeley, birthplace of the U.S. free speech movement in the 1960s, has emerged as a flashpoint for the extreme left and right amid debate over free speech.

    Earlier this month, a bloody brawl broke out in downtown Berkeley at a pro-Trump protest that featured speeches by members of a self-described white nationalist group. They clashed with a group of left-wing Trump critics who called themselves anti-fascists.

    Officials at UC Berkeley had said they feared renewed violence on campus if Coulter followed through with plans to speak despite the cancellation, citing "very specific intelligence" about threats that could endanger Coulter and students. Coulter said the threats were motivated by a university bias against conservative speakers.

    She posted Friday on Twitter about the peaceful rallies in Berkeley: "Amazing what cops doing their jobs can accomplish!" Link
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  6. #36
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    This whole idea of safe spaces, trigger words, and micro-aggressions is absolutely ridiculous.

    Unfortunately, the newest generation has mostly been brought up believing they are special snowflakes, that they are entitled to and deserve everything, that they are owed, that they are unique, and that they have qualities that cannot be found in any other individual. Easily bruised egos with even the least amount of criticism.

    I have a theory that increasing reliance on various technologies either causes brain atrophy, or the brain never develops certain areas. The symptoms of this issue are playing themselves out in various ways as technology progresses and new generations are born.

    For example, people used to have intricate, well-developed mental mapping systems - thousands of taxi cab drivers have had CT scans in studies, and they've found that the mapping area of their brain is much, much larger than the rest of the population.

    Most people born and raised in the GPS/smartphone era, this part of the brain simply never came into existence. Most young people in developed countries do not know what direction east or west is, even if it's the crack of dawn or the sun is just setting.

    The human brain is like this - if it no longer has a need for a certain area because of technology or whatever - the brain develops more in certain areas to the detriment of other pre-existing areas that had been with us for millennia. It's even thought that prehistoric humans had a 10-20x better sense of smell than modern humans - but once dogs entered the picture, they were already so much better at it than us that the area of the human brain dedicated to smell shrunk to 5-10% of its former size, as there was a far lesser need for it with the dog at our side. Obviously it wasn't a complete loss - after dogs started herding animals for us, herding then directly led to farming, and hence civilization. With the smell center having shrunk, other parts of the brain were allowed to grow larger which was conducive toward a more highly developed language, science, technology, etc.

    Obviously, as shown by evidence in the taxi cab driver study - these changes to the brain can happen within a single lifetime and are not reliant on genetics for them to occur. And I believe we're seeing these changes across entire populations in this technological age we live in.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 30 Apr 17, at 15:14.

  7. #37
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    And I thought it's related to how we raise kids at home.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    This whole idea of safe spaces, trigger words, and micro-aggressions is absolutely ridiculous.

    Unfortunately, the newest generation has mostly been brought up believing they are special snowflakes, that they are entitled to and deserve everything, that they are owed, that they are unique, and that they have qualities that cannot be found in any other individual. Easily bruised egos with even the least amount of criticism.
    I read this somewhere (maybe here on the WAB?), something to the effect of "You don't go to college to have your beliefs validated and have yourself protected...you're preparing yourself for the real world, more than anything else."

    I'm quoting badly, I thought I'd saved it somewhere. Anyway, that's the gist of it.

    To which I would add: You go to primary school K-12 to learn how to learn. You go to college to learn how to function as an adult, a solo unit responsible for yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    I have a theory that increasing reliance on various technologies either causes brain atrophy, or the brain never develops certain areas. The symptoms of this issue are playing themselves out in various ways as technology progresses and new generations are born.
    The usual retort to the "This generation sucks" complaint is "People have always said that about the younger generation!"

    My reply is what you just said. Never before has technology existied like this been able to replace so many basic human interactions or or functions. It's not the same as previous generations. Not by a long shot.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    And I thought it's related to how we raise kids at home.
    It is Dok. It's the complete package. And we're failing badly. Time will only tell what the true long-term consequences are. We can already see the short-term.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  10. #40
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    TH,

    My reply is what you just said. Never before has technology existied like this been able to replace so many basic human interactions or or functions. It's not the same as previous generations. Not by a long shot.
    you're right in that there's definitely changes that previous generations did not have to deal with-- but that's been a truism in the last two hundred years. the jump between horse messenger and telegraph was an enormous one, far bigger than the difference between the telegraph/phone/internet, for instance.

    moreover, while there's some aspects of technology that replace basic human interactions or functions, there are others where it either enhances or augments those same interactions/functions.

    taking ironduke's assertion that "people used to have intricate, well-developed mental mapping systems"-- well, no, people used to just get -lost-. :-)

    so yeah, we mock "safe spaces, trigger words, and microaggressions", but on the other hand, pretty sure those hippies were more than equal to living up to the "ridiculousness" standard. or, for that matter, the oh-so-grungy Gen-Xers...:-)

    trying to assert broad sociological effects from continually ongoing technological changes doesn't really work well. it's actually pretty funny to see increasing numbers of my particular generational cohort (early 1980s) go through their own get-off-my-lawn screeds as they try to differentiate themselves from younger millennials or whatever the next generation is called.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Like I said your opinion is worthless repetition. Now when you arrive in Berkeley and obtain first hand information then you might have something. You seem like a smart guy but you make me wonder. I don't live in Arkansas and consequently would never voice an opinion about what goes on in the state. I'm smart enough to realize that yet you feel you have more knowledge regarding Berkeley than a person who has lived within 15 miles of it for 45 years.
    I don't need to live on a farm to know that occasionally it smells like bullshit. Berkeley and Cal are being sued for collusion to stop conservative speakers. CAL students did block white students from the entrance to the campus. Some of the black bloc rioters were in fact Cal students.

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    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    He voices his opinion based on what he reads and sees in media. Is it a bad thing? Dang, we should all post just for what happens around us.

    I can see why you keep repeating it is not the same as a first hand experience. Sure it's not.
    A lot of things happened here and when I saw them on the news my reaction was "where the hell am I". But, that's how things are.
    Media as in the facebook link. Facebook! Give me a break.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    [B][SIZE=3]
    "Having a large police presence definitely helped yesterday," Berkeley Mayor Jesse Arreguin told San Francisco TV station KTVU on Friday. "What we saw was people in the park speaking out, there were lots of discussions and debates that happened, and that's what we wanted to facilitate.
    If you scroll down this link you'll see that until it was reported, Jesse Arreguin was a facebook member of BAMN
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  14. #44
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    I don't need to live on a farm to know that occasionally it smells like bullshit. Berkeley and Cal are being sued for collusion to stop conservative speakers. CAL students did block white students from the entrance to the campus. Some of the black bloc rioters were in fact Cal students.
    LOL! Some of the black bloc rioters were in fact Cal students? Have you ever seen one in person? Do these Cal students dress up in this costume to travel all potential hot spots in the Bay Area? Simply unbelievable a 4.0+GPA anarchist.

    Cal students blocked white students from campus!!! Are you implying non-white Cal students blocked white Cal students from the entrance to campus? Again were you there to see for your self? Can you tell the difference between who is a Cal student and who isn't? I'm sure you are assuming everyone who is in Sproul Plaza must be a student. I counter that many of those in that area are non-students who have been coming on campus for 50 years. How do I know? I been there enough to see who is and who isn't.

    Frankly I don't give a damn about what happens in the immediate area off campus. It is all political theater by both sides who picked the place where one could get the biggest reaction to use for their base and propaganda. I don't care about either side. Yet don't get holier than thou about how Coulter was all about free speech. She isn't but it was a great hook to use. Just as Trump is no fan of free speech either as he looks into ways to alter libel laws which is an early and insidious way to attack free speech. The lawyer representing the group suing is a nice touch though.

    However, I do care when someone with no knowledge thinks they innately know what the University of California at Berkeley is all about while amazingly having never set foot on campus. Sorry, TH, but when it comes to that neither Z or even you have the background that could compare to mine or another alumni like DOR. We know the school better than any here and know that only an incredibly small amount of Cal students have ever been involved with any of this over the decades. Students are here to learn and if you took a walk around the school you would see that first hand and realize what I say. Walk off campus, onto Telegraph and you have crossed into the Twilight Zone as it is that different. Want tie dyed, hand made jewelry or drug accessories then that is the place for you as it is still 1968.

    Last those who look through the narrow prism of a tight camera shot on their particular media sight you are missing much. The wider shot of the scene Thursday in Sproul Plaza confirms what I already knew was true. This shot is of the Young Republicans giving an interview, they have been around for decades on campus like others and no one paid much attention then, nor are they now. Here is a campus with 33,000 students and how many are seen in the background? With dozens of campus entrances only a small percentage of students need to go through here. I never went through here in four years. I have sat there though to watch the Asian girls and now and then the assorted kooks, nuts, oddballs, and the few campus activists set up their tables. On a normal day of today most of all that has disappeared except for the girl watching. By the way half the people in that crowd aren't students at all just so you know Z not that it matters. In fact, on weekends, this whole area is devoid of students and taken over by all the street denizens off Telegraph. I do like the shot as the guy in the white shirt at the back retainer wall is sitting in my spot while the fountain is still empty going on 40+ years. Anyone want to guess why?
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    Last edited by tbm3fan; 30 Apr 17, at 21:15.

  15. #45
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    One more thing about these nine campuses. In years past I heard from those uninformed that UCLA was home to the Jewish American princess, UC Santa Cruz to the tree hugger and UCB to the radical activist. Some here think that. You, as an applicant, don't get to choose the school. The school doesn't get to choose the applicant. One application is submitted to the UC Regents were you list your preferences if you so desire. In 2016 206,000 applied to the UC System. Many state residents applied to four schools which can explain the 119,000 to request UCLA, 103,000 to UC San Diego and 102,000 to UCB to name a few. For UCLA 18% got their choice while UC San Diego 35,2% got theirs, and 17% got theirs at UCB. So if you don't get your first choice you are offered down the line your second, third and fourth choices if listed. Both UCLA and UCB averaged a gpa of 4.12-4.30 for admissions while UC San Diego was 4.00-4.27. Definitely UC San Diego was the place to go as I could have told you that. It just doesn't have the cachet of saying you went to UCLA, UC Berkeley or USC. Long story short the student profile on all nine campuses are pretty much similar given the top down admissions process. There are no more student radicals at UCB than there are at UCLA.

    The only problem is where the UCB campus is located starting in 1868. It was a scrap of land called Berkeley. I'm sure pretty ordinary back then. As for Los Angeles and San Diego who even lived there besides Indians and the local Hispanic population. In fact UCLA, the second UC, didn't open until 1929. Today when it comes to defending a campus UCLA and UC San Diego have it easy. Both are difficult to access and neither one could be said to reside in the middle of a town per se. UCB does reside in the middle of a town, with dozen of entrances to campus from major to little trails between bushes. IT is a sieve. You simply cannot restrict movement of anyone who wants to cross and they do. If you want to get to the north side from the south side you cross campus as the quickest way. This goes for students, all non-students who might live in the area and then all shall I call them the denizens. On the weekends you see home owners walking their dogs on campus. The students, who are just like the students at UCLA, just want to get to their classes and then get the hell out of their in four years if possible. Even more so today given the cost which dwarfs what I paid many times over.

    Oh and what Mario wanted back in 1964 was the ability to set up tables (dealing with political activities) in Sproul Plaza as the first one set up was CORE dealing with racial equality and it was taken down and Weinberg arrested. At the time the University restricted everything and even had loyalty oaths for the teaching faculty. The only tables, or fund raising allowed, was for the on campus Democratic and Republican clubs. The University eventually backed down and tables went up and stayed to this day. Kind of like Speaker's corner in London where anyone can come and talk about God knows what. Outside of People's Park and demonstrations over Vietnam the school was pretty quiet otherwise. When I started the activity centered around LA Raza yet no protests. Ironically my early girlfriend at the time was Chicana and in the group. Last I heard she was a lawyer in the Los Angeles DA office some years back.
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