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Thread: Two Chinas and the Donald

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    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    Two Chinas and the Donald

    The Donald keeps the hits coming

    China: No negotiation on 'One China' policy despite Trump remarks
    By Eugene Scott, CNN
    Story highlights
    China views Taiwan as a renegade province
    "Everything is under negotiation, including 'One China,' " Trump said Friday
    Washington (CNN)China's Foreign Ministry firmly pushed back Saturday against President-elect Donald Trump's suggestion that the "One China" policy on Taiwan is negotiable, calling it the "political foundation" of the relationship between the US and China.

    China views Taiwan as a renegade province and, since 1979, the US has acknowledged Beijing's claim that Taiwan is part of China, with US-China relations governed by a set of protocols known as the "One China" policy.

    "The 'One China' principle is the political foundation of Sino-US relations and it is non-negotiable. We urge the relevant side in the US to recognize the high sensitivity of the Taiwan issue and abide by the pledges by successive US administrations from both parties," spokesman Lu Kang said.
    He was responding to a question about Trump's remarks Friday in The Wall Street Journal in which he said, "Everything is under negotiation, including 'One China.' "
    "The pledges include adopting the 'One China' policy, adhering to the principles in the three Sino-US joint communiques and properly handling the Taiwan issue. Only doing so would prevent the healthy and stable development of Sino-US relations as well as bilateral cooperation in major areas from being affected," Lu added.
    Chinese state media slams Tillerson over South China Sea
    The Chinese official highlighted the international community's view on the issue in a statement.
    "There is only one China in the world. Taiwan is an inseparable part of Chinese territory and the People's Republic of China is the sole legitimate government representing China," Lu said. "These are facts recognized by the international community and no one can change this."
    China's foreign ministry lodged a complaint last month with the United States after a phone call between Trump and Taiwan President Tsai Ing-wen overturned decades of diplomatic protocol, because there are no formal diplomatic relations between the US and the province.
    At the time, Trump said he was merely accepting a congratulatory call from the Taiwan leader, tweeting, "Interesting how the U.S. sells Taiwan billions of dollars of military equipment but I should not accept a congratulatory call

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/14/politi...-china-taiwan/
    Last edited by troung; 15 Jan 17, at 22:57.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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    Tillerson's an idiot who's trying to tell everyone on the Foreign Committee what he thinks they want to hear.

    The problem is that he's a geopolitical novice, so he says stuff like "blocking access to SCS islands" which is about as grounded in reality as saying he'll have his good friend Grand Moff Tarkin come over with the Death Star to declare a blockade around those islands (and it's not really State's responsibility either).
    Last edited by Skywatcher; 16 Jan 17, at 15:40.

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    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Everything is under negotiation, including one China? LOL, not in a million years would that be negotiable to the Chinese. Misreading them again. Things were nice and quiet as long as everyone went along with that charade and never contradicted the premise nor said the word independence. Now China will have to show that she meant what she said. That and whatever North Korea has planned for this year.

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    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Everything is under negotiation, including one China? LOL, not in a million years would that be negotiable to the Chinese. Misreading them again. Things were nice and quiet as long as everyone went along with that charade and never contradicted the premise nor said the word independence. Now China will have to show that she meant what she said. That and whatever North Korea has planned for this year.
    What's worse? Rewarding a nation for the massacre of a student revolt. By building factories there and helping them become what they are today..which is basically a totalitarian regime allowed to trade with the west. With no hint of reform. Yeh well done that sounds fair. Understand China while receiving it up the ass!

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    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    That is old news.Seems they upped the ante with human organs traficking.Shooting protesters is so unimaginative.Killing political opponents and selling them is both creative and profitable
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    What's worse? Rewarding a nation for the massacre of a student revolt. By building factories there and helping them become what they are today..which is basically a totalitarian regime allowed to trade with the west. With no hint of reform. Yeh well done that sounds fair. Understand China while receiving it up the ass!
    Have a look at who made those investments in China.
    Hong Kong and Taiwan top the list with more than half.

    Next, pick up a book on China in the past 25 years.
    Pay particular attention to the reforms that have been made.

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    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Have a look at who made those investments in China.
    Hong Kong and Taiwan top the list with more than half.

    Next, pick up a book on China in the past 25 years.
    Pay particular attention to the reforms that have been made.
    And under who did the Hong Kong and Taiwan economies flourish?

    No doubt reforms have been made. Still very corrupt. Only major industrial country I know that charges 1000's for over staying your visa and won't let you go till you pay

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Everything is under negotiation, including one China? LOL, not in a million years would that be negotiable to the Chinese. Misreading them again. Things were nice and quiet as long as everyone went along with that charade and never contradicted the premise nor said the word independence. Now China will have to show that she meant what she said. That and whatever North Korea has planned for this year.
    Tsai will really regret giving the $140,000 to Bob Dole once Jared Kushner talks to his Chinese billionaire pals and two months later; China builds a couple dozen new factories in the purple states, while the ROCAF contingent at Luke AFB has to leave for the immediate future on "technical difficulties" and the Trump twitter account demands Tsai start reunification talks.

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    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    What's worse? Rewarding a nation for the massacre of a student revolt. By building factories there and helping them become what they are today..which is basically a totalitarian regime allowed to trade with the west. With no hint of reform. Yeh well done that sounds fair. Understand China while receiving it up the ass!
    There is no one who dislikes the way the Chinese government has behaved nor who dislikes how some American retail outlets have behaved more than me. That said I am not going to pontificate about past history by going should've, would've and could've.

    We are dealing with the hand we have today and by saying the one China is up for negotiation has just ripped the "face" from the Chinese. The blowback, because of that, could be immense depending on how they want to play it. I am no fan of seeing Taiwan reunite with China as it would be as bad for them as it is becoming for Hong Kong. That is why I was fine with the charade of "one China" as it kept both sides happy and no side lost face. Also prevents anyone feeling they have to go to war which they would and we wouldn't.

    As for reform what do you suggest? With a country like China the only way there will be reform is if it comes from it's own people. Any outside force will just cause the rally around the flag reaction benefiting the government.

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    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    And under who did the Hong Kong and Taiwan economies flourish?

    No doubt reforms have been made. Still very corrupt. Only major industrial country I know that charges 1000's for over staying your visa and won't let you go till you pay
    The starting point for Taiwan's modern economic development was the Japanese colonial era, but I'm not sure why you seem to think that the socio-economic structure under which companies becomes capable of investing overseas is somehow relevant to this discussion. As for Hong Kong, that was British colonialism.

    Were you trying to make some subtle point about colonialism as the best structure for economic development?

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    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    The starting point for Taiwan's modern economic development was the Japanese colonial era, but I'm not sure why you seem to think that the socio-economic structure under which companies becomes capable of investing overseas is somehow relevant to this discussion. As for Hong Kong, that was British colonialism.

    Were you trying to make some subtle point about colonialism as the best structure for economic development?
    I'm saying the money came from the UK (in Hong kong) and from American (in Taiwan) banks..Taiwan exists because the US has helped protect it and heavily invested in it. Same as Israel exists because it to is protected by the US. Lets face it Taiwan would have been over run if not for American assistance. So my point is if you follow the money invested into communist China. It comes from where?

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    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I'm saying the money came from the UK (in Hong kong) and from American (in Taiwan) banks..Taiwan exists because the US has helped protect it and heavily invested in it. Same as Israel exists because it to is protected by the US. Lets face it Taiwan would have been over run if not for American assistance. So my point is if you follow the money invested into communist China. It comes from where?
    Nah, that wasn't the case. If you follow the money invested in China, half comes from Hong Kong.

    The earliest foreign investors in the PRC under Deng Xiaoping were local, Chinese-owned Hong Kong companies. They were mainly in garments, toys and other labor-intensive household items. Jardines, Swire and the other British Hongs had rep offices and trading operations, but they weren't big manufacturing companies.

    As for Taiwan, the Japanese introduced food processing and canning well before the war, which gave the island's local businesses a significant step up the value-added chain. Lending by US banks in Taiwan was limited even when I lived there in the early 1980s. They didn't trust the corporate balance sheets, they were largely locked out of the mass lending market by local banks and banking regulations, and they certainly didn't make a material difference to the development of the economy. The major exceptions were US investments such as Taiwan Polypropylene.

    Yes, the US defense umbrella was important. Even more important was the pre-GPCR PLA's near total lack of amphibious capacity. Crossing the Taiwan Strait in force would have made D-Day look like a sure thing.

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    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Nah, that wasn't the case. If you follow the money invested in China, half comes from Hong Kong.

    The earliest foreign investors in the PRC under Deng Xiaoping were local, Chinese-owned Hong Kong companies. They were mainly in garments, toys and other labor-intensive household items. Jardines, Swire and the other British Hongs had rep offices and trading operations, but they weren't big manufacturing companies.

    As for Taiwan, the Japanese introduced food processing and canning well before the war, which gave the island's local businesses a significant step up the value-added chain. Lending by US banks in Taiwan was limited even when I lived there in the early 1980s. They didn't trust the corporate balance sheets, they were largely locked out of the mass lending market by local banks and banking regulations, and they certainly didn't make a material difference to the development of the economy. The major exceptions were US investments such as Taiwan Polypropylene.

    Yes, the US defense umbrella was important. Even more important was the pre-GPCR PLA's near total lack of amphibious capacity. Crossing the Taiwan Strait in force would have made D-Day look like a sure thing.
    I have a figure of 4 billion given by the US in financial aid. Hardly chicken feed when convert into today's money. As for Hong Kong. The money from there would never have been available if not for British rule of law and investment. Chinese in Hong Kong did the work I don't dispute that.
    I think what is apparent to me at least is that globalisation involving China started as a British trading post....

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    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I have a figure of 4 billion given by the US in financial aid. Hardly chicken feed when convert into today's money. As for Hong Kong. The money from there would never have been available if not for British rule of law and investment. Chinese in Hong Kong did the work I don't dispute that.
    I think what is apparent to me at least is that globalisation involving China started as a British trading post....
    US aid to Taiwan was crucial in the 1950s; the ROC government couldn’t even set a budget until they knew what amount the US would be donating each year (John Fei and Shirley Kuo’s “Growth with Equity” is particularly good on the role of aid).

    US aid to Taiwan was crucial in the 1950s as a stabilizer allowing the government to get on with other kinds of reforms, particularly land reform. By the 1960s, aid was a much more technical, agriculturally focused contribution. It was, quite literally, chicken feed . . . feeding chickens better meal.

    Whatever you think of Hong Kong’s rule of law – and it was among the best in the region for many, many years – it remains a simple fact that it was not British Hongs investing in early Reform Era China but Hong Kong merchants. It isn’t so much that they “did the work,” but rather they took the risk.

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    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    US aid to Taiwan was crucial in the 1950s; the ROC government couldn’t even set a budget until they knew what amount the US would be donating each year (John Fei and Shirley Kuo’s “Growth with Equity” is particularly good on the role of aid).

    US aid to Taiwan was crucial in the 1950s as a stabilizer allowing the government to get on with other kinds of reforms, particularly land reform. By the 1960s, aid was a much more technical, agriculturally focused contribution. It was, quite literally, chicken feed . . . feeding chickens better meal.

    Whatever you think of Hong Kong’s rule of law – and it was among the best in the region for many, many years – it remains a simple fact that it was not British Hongs investing in early Reform Era China but Hong Kong merchants. It isn’t so much that they “did the work,” but rather they took the risk.
    With money made from opium and the slave trade etc...I'm going back to the roots. Chinas trade imbalance back then was corrected by selling them opium. Which came from the UK and India via the east India company etc. Weird to think present day wealth has been built on slavery and drugs. Just reading that the money paid to british slave owners as recompense for freeing slaves was the equivalent of the bank bailout in 2008. This money was then invested into London banks and spread around the planet to acrue interest through commodities ,opium bring a main one in the 19th century in trade with china

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