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Thread: 2017 American Political Scene

  1. #976
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Impeach him? Why? The people elected him, they should get a chance to taste his policies (when they come, if they come). If he gives the country away to Russia or bans immigrants, so be it. Meanwhile, lets repeal Obamacare.
    It was on the agenda, the ACA repeal. As for giving the US to Russia, well its like you own Apple and give it to Nokia. Has he lift the sanctions yet?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

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  2. #977
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    can't build yourself in isolation. people need to see Dems actively opposing this administration. Dems have little enough power as it is, they need to exercise it or forfeit it.

    by the way, what I just said was a truism for both parties. for instance, I never expected Republicans in 2009 to roll over and allow Dems to 'face the consequences/glory of their choice'.
    The "people", as you call them, threw the Dems out of power. Yes, I know the Orange Messiah lost the popular vote, but he did win the Presidency on a platform of Law and Order, #draintheswamp, winning and repealing Obamacare.

    Democrats need to be able to attract the center and get back the Obama votes that Hilary lost. I don't see that happening with the current protests.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    i've heard this argument before, i'm not persuaded. there's a lot of schadenfreude here, which I completely get. Republicans blowing up Obamacare without a matching replacement would certainly drive people into the arms of Dems...but there's no guarantee that Dems will then regain the stranglehold on power that they enjoyed in 2009 and then suddenly pass universal healthcare. creating legislation is always harder than opposing it, as Republicans are finding out now.

    instead, should Republicans go for repeal, Dems should fight it out, make it a messy process, and if they lose, THEN try to capitalize off the ensuing chaos.
    You are more experienced, whatever works. They main thing now is to get back seats. For example, Should Dems make a partisan show of opposing Gorsuch and be called obstructionist? He is certainly going to get elected either way. Why not save your energy for things that actually do matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    that is only the start. there needs to be a revitalization of the Dems at the state level. GVChamp pointed out earlier about the institutional weakness of the Dems that HRC was papering over, the extent of which I disagreed with him about during the election. turns out he was certainly right. that needs to be fixed, and one of the silver linings of all the protests lately is that it's driven a huge interest in the Dem base on this very subject.
    How do you get seats without revitalizing the party? You have to do that anyway. Another step is to push credible candidates to the fore. One of the local Republican Congressmen from WA (not a bad guy) probably got elected because his Dem opponent vacillated between wanting to run and running away. People like that need to be purged and credible faces brought in.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  3. #978
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    It was on the agenda, the ACA repeal.
    Lets have it then. I suggest that the GOP ignore those who are protesting in townhalls (as per Trump, Republican Legislators represent “Republican people” only) in their districts and repeal it anyway. Lets also have a complete and total immigration ban as well as hike on import duties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    As for giving the US to Russia, well its like you own Apple and give it to Nokia. Has he lift the sanctions yet?
    I don't know, you tell me. The guy talking about reducing them took the sword when he got caught. Meanwhile, the claims of Russian interference in the elections are not getting investigated.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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    Trump's policies are so toxic that the American people, who gave him the greatest electoral victory since Reagan, deserve to actually experience them. Never mind the fact that cancelling the TPP hurts American farmers, cancelling Obamacare puts millions out of coverage or stupid trade wars hurt American jobs. They have elected him, they can have his policies too.
    I guess you already know, but that is yet another "alternative fact" from the commander in chief. Bush Sr. (426), Clinton I and II and Obama I and II were all bigger electoral college victories.

    As for the "toxic" policies, they are "toxic" only for you. The people who voted for trump love them. They want a Muslim ban, or even better a complete immigration ban for non-white people (failing which what Bannon and co. cooked up recently would do), they love Jeff Sessions and Betsy Devos, they want someone in the SCOTUS who'll somehow destroy Roe v. Wade, they want Obamacare gone (even though a lot of them think it is different from the ACA). And most importantly, they want the wall, no matter if it burns a hole in the budget. The Donald is doing exactly what he promised in the campaign.

    The "toxic" policies will only hurt non-Trump voters, except perhaps the Obamacare repeal. That's why the Dems need to fight them tooth and nail, even if it is futile in most cases, just to wear the Republicans out if possible.

  5. #980
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    Agreed, Obama was an idealist that wanted to bring unity and cooperation etc. and he tried the bipartisan game for years only to get stonewalled. Unfortunately the no-hostages Tea Party tactics of the far Right were largely effective, and the far Left was paying attention.
    I agree! To some extent, anyways. The Tea Party was needlessly combative. The Republic as a whole has become increasingly partisan and increasingly combative, particularly since 1994.

    You have your choice to make as a voter who you want to support, but I'd recommend not deluding yourself into thinking the progressive base is some incredible technocratic group of people who have civil conversations. It's Herbal Tea Party vs. The Tea Party.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    GVChamp,



    actually, i'm saying this from a fairly non-partisan basis. I would much prefer Mike Pence be the President, because he has at least shown minimal competence. from a strictly partisan standpoint this would actually be worse, because he would certainly not antagonize Dems as much and would get significantly more conservative goals done.

    on the other hand, if it came to a national security or economic crisis i could at least go to sleep knowing that POTUS didn't throw out more conspiracy theory on Twitter.



    they don't exist, and therefore they have no power.

    there's -pragmatic- Republicans but this is pragmatism in method, with nothing moderate about their political beliefs. Goldwater remarked drily that he didn't think he would ever be considered a liberal...and yet he was, and this was back in the -1990s-.



    and if ifs and buts were candied nuts, we'd all be fat.

    BTW there WAS one establishment Republican candidate that ran solely against Trump, her name is Hillary Rodham Clinton...lol. i kid, but not by THAT much.



    if you mean i think Trump's Supreme Court justices would pave the way for the dictatorship of Trump, of course not. but obviously how law would be interpreted would be hugely different if you had another three Scalia-type judges vice one.



    dude, it's been 3 weeks and we've had how much chaos caused by -one- EO? a EO that was exclusively pushed by the radical right.

    for that matter, how many people were aware of what Breitbart was a year or two ago? or even what 'alt-right' meant? how about now?



    funny thing is that i've heard this from liberals trying to tell themselves that the disaster of 2016 will be temporary in nature.

    it's true, demographics will work against the right in the medium-term. but what i am more worried about is the influence of the radical right...on the right. for the time being, it's clear that Republicans are of course trying their best to ignore or tamp down the inflammatory aspects of the alt-right behavior and words coming from the WH, but we have all heard the quotes about supping with the devil.



    see, that is exactly my views of the right, only i believe i have rather more evidence on my side given the entirety of the Obama administration.

    there certainly would have been increased moderation on the left had Obama lost to Romney, or had HRC lost to Ted Cruz. but again, because Trump played with economic populism throughout his campaign, that already left holes in the argument that the electorate is desperate for conservative solutions...and that's not even counting the fact that Trump failed to win a majority of the vote.

    even then, note how Dems were trying to make nice during the first week by talking up cooperation on Trump's infrastructure stimulus.

    of course the administration then took that goodwill gesture, doused it in gasoline and lit it on fire with his EOs. and now with all this Russia stuff coming out of the woodwork, of course the Dem base-- and even the moderates, of which I consider myself one-- would EAT the Dem politicians alive if they tried to make nice with this administration.

    Obama, at the very least, tried to reach out because he wanted to show himself as the guy whom brought bipartisan sanity back to DC. how much reaching out is this administration doing?
    I worry more about Sander-istas and BLM than I do Breitbart. The "olive branch" the Dems put out lasted a week, and the Progressive base immediately torched it, not Trump. You say it has to do with Russia, but you were disgusted with Trump before he even took office, as were all the marchers participating in the Resistance March on the first day Trump was in office.

    It's okay to hate Trump, it's not okay to say Progressives ever intended to give him a chance. They didn't and immediately turned up maximum heat on the Dem establishment.

    Given that they have the demographic advantage, cultural advantage, political advantage, practically every advantage except they have less guns (which doesn't matter because I don't think a civil war is coming), I worry about them a lot more.

    Dealing with base Democrats, it's obvious they think Trump is Time-Travel Hitler and that the Koch Brothers and the NRA are the Slave Power. Their ideal of civic democracy means nothing when they think everyone opposed to them is an uneducated hick, a racist, or bought off by the Koch brothers (all of which is speech they believe should be regulated and/or banned by the State).

    Regarding the establishments specifically, I agree that Dems in general are more conciliatory than Repubs at the moment....but that's partially because the Herbal Tea Party hasn't completely taken over the party yet. And I also think you over-emphasize how extreme the Republicans are (you are saying there are literally no moderate Republicans: I don't even feel the need to argue so extreme a stance), and how moderate the Dems are. Specifically, just because Obama said he was going to be a post-partisan technocrat, doesn't mean he was...it also doesn't matter, because in this era of Voxsplaining, liberals largely believe "Technocracy" means only liberal policies and "bi-partisan" means Republicans have to cave.
    It certainly doesn't mean "let's have an actual discussion over whether mammograms should be annualized expenses for groups that aren't at-risk" because that's misogynist.


    To give a summary of what I personally need to happen, Illinois is set, at the absolute BEST case scenario, to have a $5 billion budget deficit this year, on $39 billion of spending. Our politicians want to plug this with a big hike in the income tax rate, which means hiking income taxes we pay by about 33%. And even this is ultimately laughable, because it's not going to factor in local tax increases, nor is it going to make whole the massively unfunded pension liabilities.

    That doesn't factor in the obvious tax hikes we all know are coming at the federal level to cover the full Baby Boomer retirement, or the tax hikes required to fund all give-aways establishment Democrats want for their voting base, or all the give-aways the hardcore Sander-istas want.


    But you know, I have white privilege, which means I am made of money apparently.


    EDIT: I should add that, while I consider myself a moderate, these days I am definitely a partisan. I'm not voting (D) because I think that party has gone crazy. But I am sure you remember that :P

    In this state, (D) is largely what I'm stuck with. I don't mind Rahm terribly much: he's about as good as we're going to get. What we really need is a Scott Walker who can thoroughly bash the public unions in the face, but the IL constitution guarantees everything, so we're screwed unless we basically approve a new constitution (which is never going to happen).

    Realistically, we need to cut education funding, but that's never going to happen. There's not any slack left in Medicaid, we can't cut that any more.
    Last edited by GVChamp; 17 Feb 17, at 17:54.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  6. #981
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    I guess you already know, but that is yet another "alternative fact" from the commander in chief. Bush Sr. (426), Clinton I and II and Obama I and II were all bigger electoral college victories.
    Sense the tone

    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    As for the "toxic" policies, they are "toxic" only for you. The people who voted for trump love them. They want a Muslim ban, or even better a complete immigration ban for non-white people (failing which what Bannon and co. cooked up recently would do), they love Jeff Sessions and Betsy Devos, they want someone in the SCOTUS who'll somehow destroy Roe v. Wade, they want Obamacare gone (even though a lot of them think it is different from the ACA). And most importantly, they want the wall, no matter if it burns a hole in the budget. The Donald is doing exactly what he promised in the campaign.

    The "toxic" policies will only hurt non-Trump voters, except perhaps the Obamacare repeal. That's why the Dems need to fight them tooth and nail, even if it is futile in most cases, just to wear the Republicans out if possible.
    Let's see
    1. Repeal of Obamacare, as you said, hits a lot of Trump voters
    2. Cancelling TPP hits American Farm produce exports to East Asia. Who did the farmers vote for?
    3. Starting a trade war with Mexico hits a lot of Texas and other middle American manufacturers, from railways to auto components. Who did they vote for?
    4. Forcing a H1B rules revision: Are you aware of what is happening? Companies are in a hurry to immediately push IT jobs overseas. Projects that had some onsite components are being re configured to depend more on offshore to reduce the onsite dependency

    I am not saying Dems should lie down and grimace while Trump grabs their...electoral seats. There should be opposition. But "The Resistance" while energizing the base and increasing fundraising, is not improving their standing with the Center.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  7. #982
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Lets have it then. I suggest that the GOP ignore those who are protesting in townhalls (as per Trump, Republican Legislators represent “Republican people” only) in their districts and repeal it anyway. Lets also have a complete and total immigration ban as well as hike on import duties.



    I don't know, you tell me. The guy talking about reducing them took the sword when he got caught. Meanwhile, the claims of Russian interference in the elections are not getting investigated.
    It was a promise he didn't hide from the people, he won, so he has to deliver it. It was not a side promise, but a major one. Just like the wall. Why he wouldn't do it and why the protests? Don't like it, wohoo, we all disagree with something, let's stop everything and protest or riot against it.

    You brought Russia, so I asked you and your answer is a question with stretching the first claim. Nice. Not.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  8. #983
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    GVChamp,

    I worry more about Sander-istas and BLM than I do Breitbart.
    i know, i just find this nonsensical. :-)

    Dems are harder to polarize politically because they're essentially a coalition of ten million separate causes, whereas Republicans are not.

    The "olive branch" the Dems put out lasted a week, and the Progressive base immediately torched it, not Trump.
    it was the EO that created the huge backlash. the Dems were talking about working with Trump on infrastructure the entire week after inauguration, which then went up in flames after the EO went through.

    It's okay to hate Trump, it's not okay to say Progressives ever intended to give him a chance.
    that's fair. but i was talking about -Dems-.

    Given that they have the demographic advantage, cultural advantage, political advantage, practically every advantage except they have less guns
    if they have the advantage now i'm hard-pressed to see it.

    even 2018 is really dicey. 2020 and beyond, yes.

    Their ideal of civic democracy means nothing when they think everyone opposed to them is an uneducated hick, a racist, or bought off by the Koch brothers (all of which is speech they believe should be regulated and/or banned by the State).
    and does this not apply to the Republican base as well? they just use different insults, that's all. lefties are just elitist Muslim-loving gay-loving communists welfare-leech snowflakes, blah blah. this is a big nothing-burger to me, it's been around since the creation of the Republic.

    You say it has to do with Russia, but you were disgusted with Trump before he even took office, as were all the marchers participating in the Resistance March on the first day Trump was in office.
    i didn't say it -just- had to do with Russia; Trump is an utter disaster for oh-so-many other reasons.

    Regarding the establishments specifically, I agree that Dems in general are more conciliatory than Repubs at the moment....but that's partially because the Herbal Tea Party hasn't completely taken over the party yet.
    like i said, the coalition nature of the modern Democratic Party makes it far harder to go extreme. moreover, Dems are more diffuse-- there's no real power base the way that the South is for the GOP.

    to put it in another way, I think it'll be a long time after this election that you'll see a Dem Presidential candidate slap their headquarters in...Brooklyn.

    And I also think you over-emphasize how extreme the Republicans are (you are saying there are literally no moderate Republicans: I don't even feel the need to argue so extreme a stance),
    i really don't think so. simply compare the stances of the most moderate Republican in the House or even the Senate with that of Republicans back in the 90s. hell, i guess Susan Collins would count as a moderate Republican? anyone else?

    in any case, I'm really not sure what you mean by the Dems have 'gone crazy'. even the most lefty of them all, Sanders, basically holds FDR stances. if you, or rather some horrific Millennial, were to wave a wand and give Dems utter dominance, what would that policy world look like? i'm hard pressed to even state the obvious 'like a Nordic country', because Dems were essentially dominant in 2009 and the result was pretty much an one-time stimulus + a healthcare plan last promulgated by a Massachusetts Republican governor, lol.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  9. #984
    Dirty Kiwi Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    Voxsplaining
    Nice
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility

    Gottfried Leibniz

  10. #985
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    It was a promise he didn't hide from the people, he won, so he has to deliver it. It was not a side promise, but a major one. Just like the wall. Why he wouldn't do it and why the protests? Don't like it, wohoo, we all disagree with something, let's stop everything and protest or riot against it.

    You brought Russia, so I asked you and your answer is a question with stretching the first claim. Nice. Not.
    Why are we talking past each other? I am saying that we should stop the protests and let Trump implement his policies. I am not being sarcastic about that. We should continue to oppose, to show that we oppose, but let the policies actually get executed.

    All the protesting currently is achieving, is creating a fundraising bonanza for Warren, Kamala Harris, Chris Murphy and others. It is not making the chance of Democrats getting elected to swing seats any stronger.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  11. #986
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chunder View Post
    I watched the whole lot, and glad I did,I'd encourage others to do so too, then laughed my ass off as the news reported it. No problem with it whatsoever. The whole 1 hour 17 minutes. I don't mind betting that in it's full context - a small insignificant portion of those chafing at the bit to criticize it would have too.

    No wonder the press approval rating is so dismal.

    Seriously at what point does one actually believe that a Trump National Security briefing is any different from an Obama briefing, and their internal deliberations on it are off the record & largely confidential.

    No real need to deliberate this as my word counts for nought but maybe rasmussen does: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...ez_track_feb16 Not quite the hard left view of Trump after all.
    Just to make sure we are talking about the same guy even though I couldn't find my pair of rose colored glasses.

    1. This is the guy who said the rollout of his EO went incredibly smooth?

    2. This is the guy who when asked a question he asked the reporter if she were friends with them? I assume it was because she looked the part.

    3. This is the guy who said he is the least anti-Semitic person you will ever meet? Leading to...

    4. a big fat fastball down the middle of the plate that almost anyone could crush out of the ballpark. This is the guy who was clearly asked about the recent rise in anti-Semitic incidents in the country the last few weeks, the reporter clearly said this wasn't about Trump but about what he would say to those taking part. This is the type of question politicians live for. They can hit this one out of the park every single time by condemning those acts and look great. Yet he whiffed on that one and thought it was a personal attack on him.

    Am I talking about the right guy?

    Almost forgot this was the guy who said he has accomplished more in his first 4 weeks as President than any other President in the history of the Presidency?

    That guy...
    Last edited by tbm3fan; 17 Feb 17, at 20:10.

  12. #987
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Interesting article from David Frum, arguing almost the exact opposite of what I propose

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...ocracy/513872/

    He paints the picture of a future universe where Trump's policies have actually worked and he (aided by Wikileaks revelations about Democrats) has been re-elected as a popular President, but where individual liberty, freedom and minority rights have taken a hit. Business leader and large corporates quickly fell in line and learnt to sing the praises of Trump.

    My thinking is, if America voted to elect Trump, then they also deserve every consequence of that decision. So, no more protests, get in line to serve The Donald
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  13. #988
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Interesting article from David Frum, arguing almost the exact opposite of what I propose

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...ocracy/513872/

    He paints the picture of a future universe where Trump's policies have actually worked and he (aided by Wikileaks revelations about Democrats) has been re-elected as a popular President, but where individual liberty, freedom and minority rights have taken a hit. Business leader and large corporates quickly fell in line and learnt to sing the praises of Trump.

    My thinking is, if America voted to elect Trump, then they also deserve every consequence of that decision. So, no more protests, get in line to serve The Donald
    First off America did not elect that guy. Some of America elected that guy. When you get 45.94% of the vote that is not America, as in all America, it is some of America. So, no, the other 52.36% have no duty whatsoever to get in line to serve that guy. Don't include me in your idea of America.

    Now imagine for a moment the election was held again but with all that we know about that guy out in the open. Not all his voters were hard core supporters. A fair amount didn't like either Clinton or that guy but simply decided to roll the dice with the outsider. How many of them would roll the dice with that guy a second time around knowing what they now know? How many decided to roll the dice? Probably several million. Change a couple of hundred thousand votes and voila a different result. Things were that close.

    So I should serve that guy? I counter that I should serve the opposition. That guy is so far from the middle that he has not one POV close to mine. Since that guy has no intention to even consider me then I am relieved of any duty to helping him and instead have the duty to make his life hard.

  14. #989
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    From an article titled "When the Democrats do it, it's ok"

    http://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.o...d2ae0343d9f50b
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility

    Gottfried Leibniz

  15. #990
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    That guy, Josef, has just declared that the press is not his enemy, it is the enemy of the American people. How truly dictatorial in implication.

    Obviously this means nothing now:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

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